Matchless & Bad Cat

garfy

There’s plenty of info on the web about Matchless regarding Sampson era etc, loads of ok demos but what I’m hoping for is some input from anyone past & present that has played consistently a DC/SC/HC 30 setup please. Also are the Bad Cat Black Cats that close? I’m looking specifically at the DC range for the two channels and incredible cleans and that they are switchable to 15w. 
Thanks 

Happy New Year in advance

Dodge

@miserneil is your man.

ToneControl

My main amp is a DC30, has been for years

I had a Badcat Hotcat too - lovely cleans and a better 70s rock sound

Badcats are often far cheaper than they should be used, definitely worth trying any that are up for sale

You can get DC30s used for a good price at present

There are some other Matchless amps with amazing cleans that are less popular (through lack of peoples' knowledge I think):
e.g. Chieftain, Independence

garfy

The Bad Cats do seem a great option and Coda is very close (too bloody close!!). I see that they are very popular maybe due to the slightly lower price but more so I would think due to “improvements or features” that they have added like dual master volumes etc. 

algroves1

Never played a Matchless but BadCat’s are tremendous amps. 

ToneControl

btw, I think the 15w switch is a waste of time, the volume drop is barely noticeable, you just lose clarity and tone

stickyfiddle

Also never played a Matchless, but Badcats are absolutely fantastic amps with better features, at least in paper.

StuartMac290

I have a very early Black Cat 30 head, one of the ones stuffed with Matchless components and fitted with two rectifier sockets, that is essentially an HC30 with a few refinements, and it is my desert island amp. I've put it up directly against a couple of HC30s and a DC30 at my studio at volume and consistently preferred it - although there's really not much in it I like the top end a little more. 

I've also had a couple of the newer Bad Cats which I really liked, but in a direct comparison with my old one they didn't quite get there. One of my favourite sounds of my old Black Cat is the EF86 channel played just about clean with humbuckers or P90s, and the new ones I had just couldn't quite cop that sound - I always had to use the 12ax7 channel for cleans, and even it was a bit different. I used to think it was because the new ones don't have the low sensitivity inputs, but actually I can get that sound on the normal input too. It's a glorious, 3D clean with a perfect level of natural compression. 

I also like the ability to jumper the channels on the old ones (or the Matchless). Plus, the build quality on the old ones in terms of things like the jack sockets used etc, is better. 

That said, they are very heavy beasts (even the heads) that play loud and have fairly crap master volumes, which I never use, so they're not the most practical amps. That's why I did use a few of the modern ones for a while, as the K Master is a very efficient and flexible system. Ultimately I found the newest ones to be excellent amps - the series immediately before the K Master ones were tremendous too and actually had a really good master volume (in fact I slightly prefer them) - but I got closer to my old Black Cat 30 with the AC side of a 3rd Power British Dream Mk2, which has a brilliant master volume called a Hybrid Master which makes that amp useable absolutely anywhere. Ironically, it sounds a bit more like a Matchless. 

What I WILL say is that Black Cat amps are, I think, THE biggest bargains on the used market. I can never get my head round why the old ones sell for so much less than Matchless HC30s when they are virtually the same amp, and if anything are slightly better. 

Oh, and personally I'd stick with the 30 watt ones, they just sound bigger and more solid to me than the 15s, even in half power mode, and the K Master on the new ones is so efficient it renders the 15s a bit pointless IMHO. 

StuartMac290

No affiliation, but this is a great buy:

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/79885/

slacker

I've not played a dc 30 but own an early black cat 30,and a lightning.  I prefer the lightning but the bc is an awesome amp.

I did a one off gig recently with the bc. The 30 gives louder cleans. Everyone liked the sound. Mine cost 899 bargain.

IvisonGuitars

Thanks for the tag @Dodge ;

I can't really add much more to what has been said already really, @StuartMac290 has it pretty much spot on.

Over time I've had a Matchles DC30, 2 x HC30's, a Clubman, a Bad Cat Black Cat 30, a Black Cat 15R & a CubII. The one I still have and regard as head and shoulders above any other amp i've owned is the Black Cat 30.

Comparing it to the Matchless, it is virtually identical (all were the original '4 input' models) except, to my ears the Matchless was slightly more 'vintage' sounding while the Bad Cat had a little more 'hifi top end sparkle' if you can imagine it. I think the only changes to the original Matchless design Mark Smapson made when forming BadCat is he moved the OP Transformer to lower the noise.

I too have a very early (2001) Black Cat and it is indeed filled with all Matchless branded parts so they are essentially the same amp in all but name. 

@ToneControl is right too, the half power switch is a waste of time, it's no magic switch to make it bedroom friendly, it'll just make it sound a bit more 'spongy' which I don't like. These are LOUD, HEAVY gigging amps but they sounds absolutely glorious! Mine has seen off Matchless, Lazy J, Marshall Hardwired, TopHat, Vox. It'll be the last amp I sell, that's 100% for sure.

Again, concurring with the above, BadCat's are absolute BARGAINS secondhand. I'm always on the lookout. You can pick one up (depending on model) for between £750 - £1200. If you need the Matchless badge then you need to pay more.

I've not tried a more recent BadCat with a K Master - which I would be interested in trying - but I did have a 2013 15R for a time, which was nice but still not able to hold a candle to my 2001 BC30. I'd look out for one of those personally. 

IvisonGuitars

Also, taking your question about consistency @garfy, I had a 2002 DC30 and a 2013 HC30 at the same time and the DC30 was flat as a pancake in comparison, just no sparkle or chime that they were known for, even re-valving didn’t help so I quickly shifted that. 

I did speak to an amp tech about it and he said Matchless were noted for inconsistancey due to the handwiring but I’m not sure if that was truth or sour grapes or whatever but there was certainly a marked difference between the 2, even through the same speakers.

Also, and I don’t know you situation of course, but these are amps made to gig. I’ve seen lots of conjecture on various forums where people are moaning that they sound crap and are not worth the money and then it turns out they are using them in their bedroom or wherever. They do sound average at best when fully attenuated down or on the first whisper of the master volume. These amps are not made for that, they are beasts that need to be wound up live and you are rewarded with an incredible sound. 

But im sure you knew that anyway!

Moe_Zambeek

I've had a DC30 and an HC30, as well as a Lightning. I preferred the DC30 sonically, the combos have a little extra magic. They are also ridiculously heavy. The Lightning I actively disliked, they are not half a DC30 as some would have it...

I prefer them in full power mode and running a single GZ34.

I sold all of them and get everything I loved about them and more from my Audio Kitchen Combover.

IvisonGuitars

Moe_Zambeek said:

I sold all of them and get everything I loved about them and more from my Audio Kitchen Combover.

....if only it looked as good as it sounded...

garfy

I really appreciate all your inputs & comments guys. I was tempted to pm a couple of you (@miserneil & @StuartMac290 especially) after searching the forum for similar topics etc, but i felt it was "not the proper thing to do" as we've never met etc. Thank you both for your invaluable insight & experience. There's certainly no need for a Matchless if the BC is every bit as good etc. I know first hand its all our own opinions to whether one is "better" than the other and only playing some can help with the choice. 
Another member has mentioned the channel jumpering which adds further flexibility (via an A/B box) to the 4 input models which im guessing is limited to the older versions of both the DC30 and Black Cats

Thanks for the heads up on the 2nd hand values, doesn't make sense when you see what some Matchless go for used... 

pmg

I have a 2013 black cat 30r which is my no.1 amp which I run wet dry with a classic deluxe 20r.  I also have a lightning 15r which seems love being paired with a Les Paul.  All are great amps and ultimately it comes down to personal preference.  

ToneControl

Before anything else, you need to find out whether you love or hate the EF86 channel

I love it, it's amazing on strats, and brings out far more expression from humbuckers than any other amp I've tried, but not everyone likes the EF86

If you don't like the EF86, some of the other amps available have 2 ECC83 channels, which would suit you more

pmg

Yes, I love the ef86 channel

garfy

Yes, a visit to Coda is on the cards to try one as they’re on my doorstep. ToneControl said:

Before anything else, you need to find out whether you love or hate the EF86 channel

I love it, it's amazing on strats, and brings out far more expression from humbuckers than any other amp I've tried, but not everyone likes the EF86

If you don't like the EF86, some of the other amps available have 2 ECC83 channels, which would suit you more

pmg

Although you need to get a good ef86 in there

ToneControl

Before I had my DC30, I had one of these, and it was very close to the DC30 in a lot of ways. This is worth knowing about as a cheaper, more portable option:

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/121289/fs-vox-ac15h1tv-combo-celestion-blue-roqsolid-cover-695#latest

These sound amazing, and unlike most of the other AC15 models, they do have an EF86 channel