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Chiropractic

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  • a chiropractor freed up the movement in my shoulder enough so I could do my rehab exercises. I needed treatment a couple of times a week just so I could get my arm over my head and do my prescribed exercises.
    i think it would still be ruined if it wasn't for the chiropractor, so they do have their uses 
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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 24208
    I used to see one for lower back pain.  He would regularly crack my spine - which I quite enjoyed - and I felt very loose and wobbly after each session.  However, one day, he decided to stand behind me whilst I was sat on a chair and he held my head then suddenly and rather forcefully, snapped it to the left.  The pain I felt was excruciating and, even though I'm definitely not a macho or aggressive type, prompted me to tell him "If you EVER do that again, I'm going to punch you".  I never went back.

    Having had surgery on my spine since, I wouldn't go near one now.
    Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.
    Also chips are "Plant-based" no matter how you cook them.
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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 11789
    Emp_Fab said:
    I used to see one for lower back pain.  He would regularly crack my spine - which I quite enjoyed - and I felt very loose and wobbly after each session.  However, one day, he decided to stand behind me whilst I was sat on a chair and he held my head then suddenly and rather forcefully, snapped it to the left.  The pain I felt was excruciating and, even though I'm definitely not a macho or aggressive type, prompted me to tell him "If you EVER do that again, I'm going to punch you".  I never went back.

    Having had surgery on my spine since, I wouldn't go near one now.


    What I have found is that most male chiropractors are quite aggressive in their treatment, and are more likely to do that sort of thing
    The one I use very occasionally is female, and uses more gentle and careful techniques, and normally mostly uses muscle spasm-removing techniques. 
    Probably the worst thing about chiropractors is that they vary a lot, and there's more room for bad practice or poor practices.
    However, I have found the same with physios. Most just give you ultrasound and or heat and leave you on a machine while they have a cup of tea.
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  • GrunfeldGrunfeld Frets: 4027
    edited January 2018

    However, I have found the same with physios. Most just give you ultrasound and or heat and leave you on a machine while they have a cup of tea.
    That's interesting.  Physiotherapy has changed massively in the last 25 years because of the requirement to use evidence-based treatments.  I subscribe to the view that the evidence base for ultrasound, heat, and massage is not strong.
    Within the NHS the requirement for using only evidence-based treatments has become a culture in most places.  There will inevitably be some "traditionalists" but not many these days.  Basically, you're unlikely to get "heat" as a treatment in the NHS.

    However, in private practice it's a different story.  It's very polarised.
    There is still the professional requirement to only use evidence based treatments but at one extreme you will find a lot more "traditional" physio treatments in private practice because (a) you've got the last cohort of dinosaurs; (b) it's a business and I have worked in private practices where it's encouraged to have three patients lying in three separate rooms simultaneously, each of them wired up to electrotherapy or some other passive treatment.  So your physio, @ToneControl isn't having a cup of tea, he's seeing two other patients at the same time!  (I've never worked like that btw.)
    At the other extreme in private practice you have physios who are really at the top of their game and choose private practice because of (a) economics, of course; (b) to be able to work without the admin demands of the NHS (which, while understandable in a stretched NHS, can really conflict with the best clinical practice; (c) to specialise. 

    Lastly, all of this evidence which supports evidence-based practice is being produced overwhelmingly by the research community of doctors, scientists, physios, and others within the international science-based medicine community --- and rather tellingly not by chiropractors or even osteopaths. 
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  • SnapSnap Frets: 6256
    I would only ever go to a physio for anything like this.

    As for scoliosis - someone in my family has it too, and the only person I trust with it, in the main, is the consultant who specialises in it.

    If there is one thing that can make your life a misery if its not right: its your back.

    I'd choose a physio every time over an osteopath or chiropractor. They cover all bases needed and IMO are far more safe and able.
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  • VibetronicVibetronic Frets: 1036
    I've been a few times for bad back pain when I've put my back out, which has been happening on and off for over 20 years now. Worst times have been when something has clicked, and I can't stand up straight or walk properly without muscle spasms (and bruising on my back from these!). A bit of manipulation from the chiropractor sorts this out really quickly, and has been a bit of a lifesaver at times (been to the doctor - just got massively strong painkillers which were fun but left me quite out of it - and once referred to physio, which was crap). So it's generally been quite positive for me. It's expensive though, so if I've just got mild discomfort then it's painkillers, and if it's really bad and I do go then I try and limit it to one or two sessions. So it's worked ok for me and saved me a few weeks of discomfort.
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  • Quackery. Dangerous, and often deadly quackery.

    (apologies for the link targets, they're the first ones I found for those articles while I'm cooking dinner - there are definitely more reputable ones out there, just Google for 'em)
    some have quacky ideas
    that doesn't mean everything they do is quackery though
    it does work on back pain and neck pain, and you can be referred on the NHS

    Dangerous? Yes, same as all medicine. You'll need injuries per million treatments to qualify that
    I've had medical tests that have a 1% fatality rate
    Many NHS procedures have a significant risk of death, including anesthesia should they all be banned?
    My friend died after a massive blob of something came loose during a routine knee operation and blocked her blood vessels in her brain. 

    Often deadly?
    That is not really defensible
    26 deaths recorded. Ever. 
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20642715
    I agree that risk/benefit should be considered before treatment, but "often deadly" is not accurate
    You're right, I was typing in a hurry. I'll edit that "often" bit out.

    However...I couldn't find any evidence of deaths due to physiotherapy (or osteopathy, which is probably borderline quackery itself). On that basis alone...physio, or a chiropractor? I'll go with the one that's less likely to result in death, thanks.

    Happily, that's also the one that's evidence-based and actually has reliable results, and where the practitioners do accurately explain the risks of what they're about to do, rather than skip that part in case the customer leaves...
    <space for hire>
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  • JalapenoJalapeno Frets: 6378
    Snap said:

    I'd choose a physio every time over an osteopath or chiropractor. They cover all bases needed and IMO are far more safe and able.
    It's grossly unfair to co-label Osteopaths and Chripractors, Osteopaths have to do a degree, and join professional body to be able to operate.  My GP told me the physios and osteos use the same theory, but different treatments to achieve the same outcome.

    Big fan of osteopathy for back, neck and shoulder ailments - always had a positive outcome.
    Imagine something sharp and witty here ......

    Feedback
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  • fnptfnpt Frets: 735
    @EricTheWeary thanks for the good wishes.

    To be clear, my son is being followed by an orthopedic since he was 6 when the scoliosis was detected and he is following the normal procedure in these situations which is to monitor to see how fast /much the curvature in the spine evolves. He also swims and goes occasionally to physiotherapy for exercises to reinforce his back.

    If it goes above 25 degrees then a vest is normally recommended. It will not "cure"/ decrease the curvature but may help to stop it or slow it down to a point in which surgery is not required which I believe is bellow 55-65 degrees depending on whether or not any organs are being affected by the curvature.

    I just feel the urge to do something to prevent it from getting worse - and I want to take the right decision: a vest now with all the implications in his daily life (few sports/ being pointed out as the odd one in school/ the discomfort of the vest) with no guarantees that it will prevent surgery OR just let it him get on with his life as normal and just accept that almost inevitably he will have to go through surgery as did his mother and cousin.
    ____
    "You don't know what you've got till the whole thing's gone. The days are dark and the road is long."
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  • scrumhalfscrumhalf Frets: 11262
    Donkey's years a go I did my back in taking a throw-in during a football game and it wasn't pleasant. My GP told me he wasn't allowed to refer me to an osteopath, and gave me the details of the osteopath he couldn't refer me to. It worked.

    Due to my poor posture when slouching over a desk I have at various times over the past 20 years needed to see a physio to sort out various neck, back, shoulder and arm things. The physio's skill and knowledge were tremendous, and cured the problem. Incidentally, when I mentioned the word "chiropractor" I could have sworn I heard the physio do a duck impression.
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  • axisusaxisus Frets: 28280
    I've seen Chiropractors, Osteopaths and Physio's over my lifetime, and with all three I'd say find a good one and they are brilliant, but most are either very average or downright poor. I saw a fabulous physio who used to work for a top football team, he was about 70 and full of experience. I also saw an amazing osteopath, he was only partially sighted but very good. He put his hands on my back and noted immediately that I was right handed (50/50 guess I suppose!) and also that I had injured my shoulder some years ago (8 years, I'd completely forgotten). 
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  • westwest Frets: 994
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  • west said:
    I suspect you're about to make quite the logical fallacy there...
    <space for hire>
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  • westwest Frets: 994
    How so , what context ?

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  • SnapSnap Frets: 6256
    axisus said:
    I saw a fabulous physio who used to work for a top football team, he was about 70 and full of experience.
    Would that be Derek French? If so, ditto. He put me through it, but resolved my locked up back brilliantly.
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  • GrunfeldGrunfeld Frets: 4027
    west said:
    How so , what context ?

    Your comment, "mmm... evidence based..." doesn't really give your view on the issue.
    The Ioannidis piece has been used by advocates of radically opposing factions over the years. 
    It's an interesting piece, with strengths and weaknesses, and people (being people) tend to take what they want from it and use it to make their case.
    I haven't got a clue what your case is!

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  • westwest Frets: 994
    well i suppose when i see 'that'  phrase used by medical professionals as irrefutable truth , it gets my back up a bit when ive been made aware of things like dr andrew marino's book going somewhere , where he discusses researchers personal bias, ego, money for future research their own career path plus flawed practices thus resulting in incorrect data ....  what good is evidence based medicince if the evidence is flawed ....

    i shouldnt have posted in this thread its the phrase i hate it .... 
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  • west said:
    well i suppose when i see 'that'  phrase used by medical professionals as irrefutable truth , it gets my back up a bit when ive been made aware of things like dr andrew marino's book going somewhere , where he discusses researchers personal bias, ego, money for future research their own career path plus flawed practices thus resulting in incorrect data ....  what good is evidence based medicince if the evidence is flawed ....

    i shouldnt have posted in this thread its the phrase i hate it .... 
    I honestly think you're misunderstanding what the phrase means. "Evidence-based" doesn't mean it's irrefutable truth at all - quite the opposite, in fact, in that it is refutable upon discovery of evidence to the contrary. Over many iterations, the method improves and yes, in many cases, that can mean it's irrefutable because it's completely proven.

    Contrast that with other methodologies, which - in a dogma-like way - by definition never change despite evidence to the contrary. Homeopathy, for example.
    <space for hire>
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  • Provided there's nothing seriously wrong with you i think there's a reasonable chance of coming away from the chiropractor satisfied with your treatment. You're happy, they're happy. I'm not sure that there's much evidence that would reassure you that you got value for money though. However if you've a dodgy disc or a kinked artery in your neck that you don't know about i think manipulation can be risky.
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  • Provided there's nothing seriously wrong with you i think there's a reasonable chance of coming away from the chiropractor satisfied with your treatment. You're happy, they're happy. I'm not sure that there's much evidence that would reassure you that you got value for money though. However if you've a dodgy disc or a kinked artery in your neck that you don't know about i think manipulation can be risky.
    After my wife had surgery to remove a disc which had slipped, burst and then resolidified around the nerves in her spine (causing permanent and irreparable nerve damage), we met a couple - a chiropractor and a homeopathy wonk - who said that she should've gone to see them instead of the NHS, because they could've fixed her problems without any need for all that surgery.

    That's demonstrably bollocks, but they tried to convince her that they could easily sort out the pain, and the nerve damage was just the doctors trying to justify their salaries, even after being shown the imaging scans of the damage. The chiropractor couldn't even tell which way up the spine was on the images, despite the clear presence of the pelvic bone.

    So...if that's the kind of person that the GCC allows to practice, then there's no way I'm going near any of them. That's in addition to their utter failure to demonstrate even the slightest objective confirmation that the subluxation construct is even close to being true, despite having had well over 100 years to do so.
    <space for hire>
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