Neck / Body join angle

TTony

Just looking at the neck/body join on one of my builds.

I need to set the neck into the body at an angle, and I can work that out from my full-size drawing, so that's not the question.

The question is whether I should leave the bottom of the neck pocket flat (ie parallel to the front and back of the body) and shape the underside of the neck heel to create the angle, or whether it's better to shape the neck pocket and leave the neck heel parallel / square.

What's the rationale for doing it one way or the other?

Sporky

TTony said:

What's the rationale for doing it one way or the other?

Whichever is easier given the other details of the guitar, the tools you have available, and your inclination* either way.

*pun not originally intended, but I'm sticking with it

How did you do it on the ones you built on courses?

TTony

On the Bailey courses, Mark shapes the back of the neck away.  I checked his online course last night, and that's the way that he does it there too.

I'd have to knock up a little jig whichever way I chose to do it.

The neck heel will protrude a little way out of the neck pocket.  So, if I put the angle on the underside of the heel, I could continue the angle so that the protruding part of the heel blends into the main  part of the neck more gradually.   In fact, it would be a pita *not* to do it that way.

I don't recall seeing any other guitar done that way though, and my experience (of cocking things up) suggests that, if no-one else does it, there's probably a good reason why it's not done that way.

Sporky

Or, if everyone does it one way, that's because that's how they did it in the Fifties.

The question that arises from that thought is what proportion of things they did better in the Fifties than we do now.

WezV

Sporky said:

TTony said:

What's the rationale for doing it one way or the other?

Whichever is easier given the other details of the guitar, the tools you have available, and your inclination* either way.

*pun not originally intended, but I'm sticking with it

How did you do it on the ones you built on courses?

Exactly this.  Either works fine.  

I have taken to doing the pocket on recent builds, but found heel easier on early ones

TTony

The neck pocket would probably be the easier option, but the neck heel would probably be the neater solution.

So, I shall go for neatness over ease.

Thanks for the opinions gents, I was looking at it trying to figure out if one was right/wrong or better/worse and couldn't see an obvious winner.

Danielsguitars

if you're doing a full width fingerboatd tenon like a Lp junior then angle the heel end and keep the pocket flat, it's good for a flat body imo and fairly easy 

If you're doing a Lp long tenon then I'd angle the pocket, you have to angle the shoulders on the neck tenon, if find this easier with a flat heel, it's a nice joint too, some don't like it but I do, I used this joint on a set neck strat and a Lp special, i use angled shims alongside the tenon on the body to get the fretboard flat on the body at the correct angle, I don't like seeing the side of a neck on the neck pocket 

That's my take on it anyway

WezV

TTony said:

The neck pocket would probably be the easier option, but the neck heel would probably be the neater solution.

So, I shall go for neatness over ease.

Thanks for the opinions gents, I was looking at it trying to figure out if one was right/wrong or better/worse and couldn't see an obvious winner.

What makes it neater?  The methods are different but results are comparable.

@customkits makes a good point about flat top vs carved.  

TTony

It's a full width tenon - this one;



I'll mark the proposed join and angles on the neck heel  tomorrow and post a pic.     The heel actually extends back to the 15th fret,  which seems a bit far.  

My thinking is to extend the neck carve  to the 16th/17th fret, and then to continue the angle that I'll put on the neck heel back to the 16th/17th where it meets the neck carve, so it'll be a very small transition from the carve to the heel.

The pics should explain that a lot better!

TTony

TTony said:

I'll mark the proposed join and angles on the neck heel  tomorrow and post a pic.     

Or, I'll just do it now ...



Hopefully that makes it a bit clearer than my written explanation.

There doesn't look to be much wood (or margin for error) at the bottom of the pickup cavity, so I'll need to check again whether the cavity needs to be that deep before I start cutting & carving.

WezV

Double check the angle too... it looks steep.  What bridge are you using?

TTony

It's a Gotoh 501 wrapover.


It's deliberately a bit steeper than the  minimum, just so that I've got a little room to adjust downwards and upwards, rather than having to have the bridge right on the body top.

But yes, checking, double-checking and triple-checking will be the order of the day.  I'll cut (router) a bit, then test fit to check the angle, then cut a bit more, test-fit check, and only then get to the final line.

WezV

TBH @ttony I would angle the pocket on this to keep that bit under the pickup as as strong as possible.

 I would also look to move the neck pickup slightly further into the body too.  An extra 1/4” of neck join will make quite a difference

TTony

WezV said:

TBH @ttony I would angle the pocket on this to keep that bit under the pickup as as strong as possible.

 I would also look to move the neck pickup slightly further into the body too.  An extra 1/4” of neck join will make quite a difference

It did look a little thin under the p'up cavity.  I might be able to leave a bit more wood on the neck heel - I need to check the p'up height.

Unfortunately, I've already routed the p'up cavities, so moving them a bit further into the body isn't really an option.  Unless I also put a cap on it.  But I've also already done the top roundover ... so I think I'm stuck with  the amount of join that I've got.

Danielsguitars

WezV said:

 I would also look to move the neck pickup slightly further into the body too.  An extra 1/4” of neck join will make quite a difference

This is why I'd never put a neck pickup in a dc junior because I don't think it's strong enough personally and i like the look of the 59 placement better so my solution would be a through neck and still cut the pole pieces down, like your firebird construction wez

One will get made this year,  hopefully with a full carved top and pafs 

Having said that a flying v type joint would've been a good compromise and added strength from the extra heel length on the body and the shoulders from the long tenon
That's how I'd build it anyway 

TTony

As I stood in the shower, I've realised what the fundamental problem is.

@WezV @customkits ;

I'm trying to fit a neck intended for a LP into a DC Jr.  Hence the tenon just isn't long enough to give enough strength for the join.

So, it's a bit of a pita, but I will put this neck aside for a future LP build and build a neck with a longer tenon for the DC Jr.  I've avoided making necks for long enough ... time to have another go at one.

I'd rather do that than try to bodge this one together.

Danielsguitars

TTony said:

As I stood in the shower, I've realised what the fundamental problem is.

@WezV @customkits ;

I'm trying to fit a neck intended for a LP into a DC Jr.  Hence the tenon just isn't long enough to give enough strength for the join.

So, it's a bit of a pita, but I will put this neck aside for a future LP build and build a neck with a longer tenon for the DC Jr.  I've avoided making necks for long enough ... time to have another go at one.

I'd rather do that than try to bodge this one together.

Sorry i hadn't realised you were using a normal lp neck, there's a big difference in length, I had to cut other blanks too when i made my first dc junior

make sure your pocket will accept a new longer neck

Make the correct length templates up for the tapered neck first and a body template with the correct mortice and trial fit it so it's a nice fit
You can also clamp the neck template on the body template centre line and double side or clamp rails either side to give you a tapered mortice, remove neck template and route the mortice making sure you use a back stop the correct length

Just bobbin sand the back of the tenon to close the gap up if you want, vintage lazy way has the gap 

Hope that makes sense and helps

TTony

I hadn't realised that I was using the wrong neck either - not until I was stood in the shower!

I think that all makes sense - thanks for the thought.  It'll take a while longer, but this is one of the three that I'm trying to build for the Q1 challenge, so I've got a few weeks to work on it yet.  

And if it means I *have* to make another neck, that's probably a good thing.  I take the easy way out too often - and end up trying to fit a LP neck into a DC Jr body ...

Bridgehouse

TTony said:

I hadn't realised that I was using the wrong neck either - not until I was stood in the shower!

What did you see that made you realise??!

mart

Bridgehouse said:

TTony said:

I hadn't realised that I was using the wrong neck either - not until I was stood in the shower!

What did you see that made you realise??!

That’s just what I was wondering. Last time I was in the shower I remembered that there was a tiny shrivelled chippolata sausage at the back of the fridge that needed to be thrown out.