The state of the NHS and the risks to us all.

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  • scrumhalfscrumhalf Frets: 4933
    I've yet to see a proper breakdown of why the pinch points occurred, and given the amount of form-filling and paperwork required I would have thought that it would have been available at the touch of a button.
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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 4188
    It needs a bit of everything:

    • increase taxes to spend more on it
    • improve efficiency (e.g. evening and weekend use of outpatients and scanners, etc)
    • dispense with the dogma about privatisation. If privatisation can deliver more effectively/efficiency, where is the problem?
    • avoid misuse (like A&E being used for GP stuff, bed-blocking)
    • encourage private health care instead of taxing those who take out the extra insurance. I'd rather there be no need for private health care, but without a "perfect" NHS, it would be immoral to outlaw private treatment
    • more training places. simple economics tells us that reduced supply of medics and nurses will push up costs and make it harder to fully meet demand

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  • capo4thcapo4th Frets: 3194
    How about people paying their way and a fee to see a doctor or a visit to Aand E.
    It would free up so much space and eliminate time wasters.

     Means tested £5 £10 £20 I have a feeling most people would be happy to pay for a good service when it’s required. We have used GP services 3-4 times in the last 3 years I would have been happy to pay a fee for the consultation and advice.
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  • GarthyGarthy Frets: 1870
    edited January 13
    capo4th said:
    How about people paying their way and a fee to see a doctor or a visit to Aand E.
    It would free up so much space and eliminate time wasters.

     Means tested £5 £10 £20 I have a feeling most people would be happy to pay for a good service when it’s required. We have used GP services 3-4 times in the last 3 years I would have been happy to pay a fee for the consultation and advice.
    Comparing it to my vet bills over the last few years, I wouldn't have a problem with that if it meant I could see a GP on the same day and they also covered lunchtime. I'm usually quite an easy going chap but my GP surgery makes me want to throw a Molotov Cocktail at them, only VW dealers rile me more.
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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 4188
    Garthy said:
    capo4th said:
    How about people paying their way and a fee to see a doctor or a visit to Aand E.
    It would free up so much space and eliminate time wasters.

     Means tested £5 £10 £20 I have a feeling most people would be happy to pay for a good service when it’s required. We have used GP services 3-4 times in the last 3 years I would have been happy to pay a fee for the consultation and advice.
    Comparing it to my vet bills over the last few years, I wouldn't have a problem with that if it meant I could see a GP on the same day and they also covered lunchtime. I'm usually quite an easy going chap but my GP surgery makes me want to throw a Molotov Cocktail at them, only VW dealers rile me more.
    the problem is (other than taxing people for being ill) is that some people would then avoid going to the GP, and then become more ill and require more expensive treatment, paid for by the state
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16926
    Interesting - could this be part of the issue. Over 1,000 care homes have closed ..

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/13/nhs-crisis-fuelled-closure-1000-care-homes-housing-30000-pensioners/

    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • BoromedicBoromedic Frets: 991
    Its definitely part of the issue Fretwired, and now Jeremy *unt is in charge of social care it will probably only get worse.

    .....and what to my wondering eyes should appear.....      nothing.......


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  • scrumhalfscrumhalf Frets: 4933
    If  had to pay to see a GP I would expect more than 7-10 minutes. I would also expect there to be a cap on what a person pays annually so that those who have the misfortune to either have several things wrong with them or a GP who is not that good do not suffer excessive and unwarranted charges.

    I'd prefer there to be a charge for missed appointments, And whilst we're at it, a charge for those too pissed or stoned to be able to control themselves. If extra revenue needs to be raised, let's start by raising it from those with no excuse.
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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 13369
    Who are almost always also the ones with no money.  Back to the drawing board..
    Birds are meant to fly free...  Open every cage you see.

    https://www.peta.org/about-peta/why-peta/caged-birds/
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  • capo4thcapo4th Frets: 3194
    Yeah too many old people have escaped from their care homes and are clogging up the hospitals ....
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  • GarthyGarthy Frets: 1870
    Garthy said:
    capo4th said:
    How about people paying their way and a fee to see a doctor or a visit to Aand E.
    It would free up so much space and eliminate time wasters.

     Means tested £5 £10 £20 I have a feeling most people would be happy to pay for a good service when it’s required. We have used GP services 3-4 times in the last 3 years I would have been happy to pay a fee for the consultation and advice.
    Comparing it to my vet bills over the last few years, I wouldn't have a problem with that if it meant I could see a GP on the same day and they also covered lunchtime. I'm usually quite an easy going chap but my GP surgery makes me want to throw a Molotov Cocktail at them, only VW dealers rile me more.
    the problem is (other than taxing people for being ill) is that some people would then avoid going to the GP, and then become more ill and require more expensive treatment, paid for by the state
    Fine, get rid of the personal allowance to pay for the NHS.
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  • capo4thcapo4th Frets: 3194
    Why should everything be free?

    We have one of the best healthcare systems in the world and people still moan about it.

    Go and check out the price of medical insurance in America.

    The NHS is unsustainable in its current form too many people using it and not contributing to its cost.
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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 13369
    We don't have "one of the best healthcare systems in the world".  It's not free.  It....  oh, forget it...  I don't have the energy.
    Birds are meant to fly free...  Open every cage you see.

    https://www.peta.org/about-peta/why-peta/caged-birds/
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  • scrumhalfscrumhalf Frets: 4933
    Emp_Fab said:
    Who are almost always also the ones with no money.  Back to the drawing board..
    Who are?
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  • paulnb57paulnb57 Frets: 1173
    Accompanied Ms nb57 to a Naval reunion late last year and ended up chatting to an ex WREN who is now a nurse in the NHS, in the course of the conversation she said that it would not be too many years before she would be in the age group that would increasingly need help from the Hospital where she works, she was very worried about the quality of treatment she would be likely to receive.......such is the state of it...
    Stranger from another planet welcome to our hole - Just strap on your guitar and we'll play some rock 'n' roll

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  • capo4thcapo4th Frets: 3194
    Emp_Fab said:
    We don't have "one of the best healthcare systems in the world".  It's not free.  It....  oh, forget it...  I don't have the energy.
    Go on fella you know you want to.


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  • cruxiformcruxiform Frets: 1491
    I started working for the NHS in 1988. At the time there were people waiting on trolleys in A&E, limited resources, staff recruitment problems, operations postponed and low morale. In 2018 it's the same. 30 years. That's 4 governments and 6 Prime Ministers overseeing the NHS. 

    Just saying.


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  • BoromedicBoromedic Frets: 991
    Who was in charge in 1988? Who is in charge now? That tells you all you need to know, it did improve under Labour in the interim.

    .....and what to my wondering eyes should appear.....      nothing.......


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  • cruxiformcruxiform Frets: 1491
    Boromedic said:
    Who was in charge in 1988? Who is in charge now? That tells you all you need to know, it did improve under Labour in the interim.
    Exactly. It did indeed improve under Labour, we felt as though we were being listened to. My salary improved and there were great policies implemented that improved the lives of my patients. I do agree with the theory that the current government are basically letting the NHS disintegrate to sell the idea of private healthcare to the masses. The majority of the people I nurse would not be able to afford private healthcare and this concerns me greatly. 


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  • BoromedicBoromedic Frets: 991
    Sometimes I subscribe to the idea that they deliberately allow it to fail for an ulterior motive, but Occams razor suggests a more simple notion that the Tories are useless and don't give a damn about certain stratas of society.

    .....and what to my wondering eyes should appear.....      nothing.......


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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 13369
    scrumhalf said:
    Emp_Fab said:
    Who are almost always also the ones with no money.  Back to the drawing board..
    Who are?
    Er... the ones you mentioned in the last couple of sentences in your post immediately prior to my comment.

    It ain't rocket surgery you know :-)
    Birds are meant to fly free...  Open every cage you see.

    https://www.peta.org/about-peta/why-peta/caged-birds/
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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 4188
    cruxiform said:
    Boromedic said:
    Who was in charge in 1988? Who is in charge now? That tells you all you need to know, it did improve under Labour in the interim.
    Exactly. It did indeed improve under Labour, we felt as though we were being listened to. My salary improved and there were great policies implemented that improved the lives of my patients. I do agree with the theory that the current government are basically letting the NHS disintegrate to sell the idea of private healthcare to the masses. The majority of the people I nurse would not be able to afford private healthcare and this concerns me greatly. 


    It's not the point you are making, but I've always been very wary of the theory that the tories want to degrade the NHS because tories are all OK because they have private healthcare (which some people seem to believe)
    The last I saw, 11% of the UK had private medical insurance, and some of those will be labour voters
    It's a fact that the percentage of tory voters is much higher above 50, and higher still above 60. Almost no one over 65 has or would be able to afford private medical insurance. 
    It's therefore clear that the vast majority of tory voters do not have private medical insurance, and many of those would not be able to afford it.

    So I ask myself "why would the tory party have a long-term policy of intentionally damaging the NHS?". 

    To be honest the government actions simply look the same as most companies' attitude to cutting costs, and the tory government has made huge cuts in other government departments.

    I think it's time the tories just stop messing about and charge extra tax to provide more funds for health, but clearly a whole load of other remedial actions are needed too. Dept of Health IT has been a laughing stock for decades, for example, and the stuff I've seen has been amateur at best.


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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 4188
    Boromedic said:
    Sometimes I subscribe to the idea that they deliberately allow it to fail for an ulterior motive, but Occams razor suggests a more simple notion that the Tories are useless and don't give a damn about certain stratas of society.
    I agree
    That's the problem with having private schools and private medicine, the ruling classes can opt out of what normal people rely on.

    Having said that, I can state from personal experience that moving to a better postcode has vastly improved my kids' education and NHS medical provision, especially when we lived in George Osborne's constituency
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  • scrumhalfscrumhalf Frets: 4933
    Emp_Fab said:
    scrumhalf said:
    Emp_Fab said:
    Who are almost always also the ones with no money.  Back to the drawing board..
    Who are?
    Er... the ones you mentioned in the last couple of sentences in your post immediately prior to my comment.

    It ain't rocket surgery you know :-)
    People who are too pissed or stoned? They have no money? Better not spend it getting pissed or stoned and spend it instead of taking care of themselves.

    People who don't bother turning up for appointments? They have no money? Not even to contact the surgery/clinic/hospital beforehand and say "sorry, can't make it, please use my appointment slot to give care and treatment to someone else who might give more of a fuck than I do"?
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  • BoromedicBoromedic Frets: 991
    Boromedic said:
    Sometimes I subscribe to the idea that they deliberately allow it to fail for an ulterior motive, but Occams razor suggests a more simple notion that the Tories are useless and don't give a damn about certain stratas of society.
    I agree
    That's the problem with having private schools and private medicine, the ruling classes can opt out of what normal people rely on.

    Having said that, I can state from personal experience that moving to a better postcode has vastly improved my kids' education and NHS medical provision, especially when we lived in George Osborne's constituency
    Absolutely, where you live and the services available to you are linked and that is another disparity that both Labour and the Conservatives have to carry the can for. Labour began closing and consolidating various hospital departments and wards to save money. That decision has had a direct impact on peoples access to services in small towns and rural areas. 

    .....and what to my wondering eyes should appear.....      nothing.......


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  • GarthyGarthy Frets: 1870
    cruxiform said:
    Boromedic said:
    Who was in charge in 1988? Who is in charge now? That tells you all you need to know, it did improve under Labour in the interim.
    Exactly. It did indeed improve under Labour, we felt as though we were being listened to. My salary improved and there were great policies implemented that improved the lives of my patients. I do agree with the theory that the current government are basically letting the NHS disintegrate to sell the idea of private healthcare to the masses. The majority of the people I nurse would not be able to afford private healthcare and this concerns me greatly. 


    It's not the point you are making, but I've always been very wary of the theory that the tories want to degrade the NHS because tories are all OK because they have private healthcare (which some people seem to believe)
    The last I saw, 11% of the UK had private medical insurance, and some of those will be labour voters
    It's a fact that the percentage of tory voters is much higher above 50, and higher still above 60. Almost no one over 65 has or would be able to afford private medical insurance. 
    It's therefore clear that the vast majority of tory voters do not have private medical insurance, and many of those would not be able to afford it.

    So I ask myself "why would the tory party have a long-term policy of intentionally damaging the NHS?". 

    To be honest the government actions simply look the same as most companies' attitude to cutting costs, and the tory government has made huge cuts in other government departments.

    I think it's time the tories just stop messing about and charge extra tax to provide more funds for health, but clearly a whole load of other remedial actions are needed too. Dept of Health IT has been a laughing stock for decades, for example, and the stuff I've seen has been amateur at best.


    There's only two places I keep reading that the Tories want to dismantle the NHS on a regular basis, here and in The Morning Star...

    Who really would want to be sitting in the big chair when such a national institution falls over? Its like the Scotland Independence vote, no PM wants to be the one that breaks up the union.
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  • mellowsunmellowsun Frets: 2324
    So I ask myself "why would the tory party have a long-term policy of intentionally damaging the NHS?". 
    Part of this is historical - Thatcher hated the NHS, and the Tories historically opposed its creation in the first place.

    I think their intention is to notionally have it still available to all, but run by private companies for a profit, because that is their ideology.

    Despite the fact that all the evidence (Virgin, Carrion) that this costs more in the long run and doesn't work.
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  • thomasw88thomasw88 Frets: 751
    mellowsun said:
    So I ask myself "why would the tory party have a long-term policy of intentionally damaging the NHS?". 
    Part of this is historical - Thatcher hated the NHS, and the Tories historically opposed its creation in the first place.

    I think their intention is to notionally have it still available to all, but run by private companies for a profit, because that is their ideology.

    Despite the fact that all the evidence (Virgin, Carrion) that this costs more in the long run and doesn't work.
    private companies and other countries state owned companies.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 32663
    Garthy said:

    There's only two places I keep reading that the Tories want to dismantle the NHS on a regular basis, here and in The Morning Star...

    Who really would want to be sitting in the big chair when such a national institution falls over? Its like the Scotland Independence vote, no PM wants to be the one that breaks up the union.
    They're trying to do it by stealth and the death of a thousand cuts - so either no-one notices until after it's gone, or if it does finally collapse it's not on their watch, or both.

    Blair and Brown must share some of the blame for it as well, they carried on with many of the Tory approaches to it.

    mellowsun said:
    So I ask myself "why would the tory party have a long-term policy of intentionally damaging the NHS?". 
    Part of this is historical - Thatcher hated the NHS, and the Tories historically opposed its creation in the first place.

    I think their intention is to notionally have it still available to all, but run by private companies for a profit, because that is their ideology.

    Despite the fact that all the evidence (Virgin, Carrion) that this costs more in the long run and doesn't work.
    I think the majority of the public may be finally be waking up to the truth that privatisation does not deliver better services or efficiency, it delivers the same and costs the same with the exception that private investors and overpaid executives take some of the money, so actually either costs more or delivers less.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 4188
    ICBM said:

    I think the majority of the public may be finally be waking up to the truth that privatisation does not deliver better services or efficiency, it delivers the same and costs the same with the exception that private investors and overpaid executives take some of the money, so actually either costs more or delivers less.
    I know it's a popularly held belief that the private sector is full of people paid too much, for doing too little, and people taking a "profit" for doing nothing.
    Whereas my knowledge and experience is from outside the world of medicine (IT and universities), where I can tell you that the exact opposite is true - very few private companies have anything like the numbers of overpaid and underproductive staff that I have seen in government departments (and universities, albeit longer ago)

    The other thing I am constantly surprised by is that many people think that people investing their time and cash in a risky venture to provide services to the public do not deserve to make any income from their investment.
    So presumably, an individual with a pension containing (at-risk) shares in Virgin does not deserve to make any income from them, whereas another individual working for a government agency directly deserves every penny of pension entitlement that the government agency assigns to them. I really can't see the logic behind this: one person works and uses their cash to seek a pension, another person is assigned a pension as part of their work package. Why should one deserve a pension (paid for by the cash allocated to the govt dept), and the other is viewed as a parasite, immorally taking money from a govt dept

    Anyway, show me the evidence that state-run departments are more efficient than the private sector at providing services
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