The state of the NHS and the risks to us all.

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 31571
    As far as I can tell, capo4th seems to believe that the better-off should pay less tax because governments waste money. While it is true that this waste does happen, the reality is that every government - of both parties - claims, and genuinely tries, to reduce waste. In practice it turns out to be very difficult and little is achieved, but when overall spending is reduced instead to try to do the same thing, the least well-off suffer the most.

    The Tories reduce taxes, but are no more successful at reducing waste, and only slightly at reducing spending, than Labour. Hence what actually happens is that government borrowing increases under the Tories more than it does under Labour, and repayment is lower. Although this is contrary to popular 'wisdom' it isn't something I'm making up, it's what the official government borrowing figures over the last seventy years show, conclusively. And at the same time under the lower-tax, lower-spending Tories, the least well-off suffer - while the better-off benefit from lower taxes.

    When the government runs a deficit, the national debt increases. The interest on this is now the fifth largest single item of government expenditure, roughly equivalent to the entire defence budget - that's the *real* waste. The huge debt responsible for this was largely incurred under Tory chancellor George Osborne, who managed to borrow more than all the Labour governments in history put together. But when the economy started to pick up and he had the opportunity to either reduce the deficit, or ease the 'austerity' which is hurting so many people, which did he choose? Neither - he reduced taxes for the better-off instead. That is Tory economics in a nutshell.

    The only time since WWII when a Tory government has run a surplus was in the late 1980s when they were selling off public assets at fire-sale prices.

    On top of all this the Tories have mismanaged the economy so badly that they have produced three major and two minor recessions since WWII, against Labour's one major and one minor - even if you include Osborne's 'double dip' recession as a continuation of Brown's. If you don't then it's six to two. It's also worth remembering that the "1970s", which are usually used as an illustration of Labour's shortcomings, were in fact under Tory governments for half the decade - and Heath's government of 1970-1974 was responsible for most of it, including introducing the three-day week... not Labour.

    The Tories - again contrary to all public perception, but quite clearly so if you look at the historical evidence - are actually the party of economic incompetence. The reason this country is in the shit is precisely because they believe in lowering taxes ahead of any other priority, and follow it up with privatisation and contracting out which largely rewards their corporate friends and donors at the public expense.

    Why people fall for the Tory myth, I really don't know. Or actually, I do know - it's because they're taken in by the bribe of lower taxes. But why Labour don't make more use of the real figures is even more puzzling.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 13038
    capo4th said:
    I am intrigued as to why you think my views are extreme? 
    that's a fair point @Emp_Fab ;;;, I don't think he's said anything that isn't mainstream tory type stuff
    It's nearly half of all voters he's speaking for here, not some isolated tiny minority
    I'm only back here because of the notification that you mentioned me...

    He's not speaking for "nearly half of all voters" any more than Nigel Farage is !  Have you read some of the things he's posted in this thread ?!

    People's political beliefs aren't binary.  "If you didn't vote Labour, you must agree with (swivel-eyed statement)".

    He spouts extremist nonsense that is demonstrably untrue and wilfully refuses to research his assertions or retract them when proved wrong.  His almost childlike polarised viewpoint about a political party that, in all likelihood, will win the next general election (and his outright refusal to even contemplate the evidence supporting this).  I could go on, but I'll leave you with one sentence of his that confirmed my belief that he's a fundamentalist extremist.  This nonsense is not what "nearly half of all voters" believe...  "The Labour Party have so many things that are just morally wrong. Unions, Momentum, Peadophiles, Terrorist supporters, Robin Hood style politics..."

    It's just the unthinking regurgitated polarised bollocks you'd expect from an adolescent who's started reading the Daily Mail.
    98% shouting at clouds and 2% laminate flooring
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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 4062
    Emp_Fab said:
    capo4th said:
    I am intrigued as to why you think my views are extreme? 
    that's a fair point @Emp_Fab ;;;, I don't think he's said anything that isn't mainstream tory type stuff
    It's nearly half of all voters he's speaking for here, not some isolated tiny minority
    I'm only back here because of the notification that you mentioned me...

    He's not speaking for "nearly half of all voters" any more than Nigel Farage is !  Have you read some of the things he's posted in this thread ?!

    People's political beliefs aren't binary.  "If you didn't vote Labour, you must agree with (swivel-eyed statement)".

    He spouts extremist nonsense that is demonstrably untrue and wilfully refuses to research his assertions or retract them when proved wrong.  His almost childlike polarised viewpoint about a political party that, in all likelihood, will win the next general election (and his outright refusal to even contemplate the evidence supporting this).  I could go on, but I'll leave you with one sentence of his that confirmed my belief that he's a fundamentalist extremist.  This nonsense is not what "nearly half of all voters" believe...  "The Labour Party have so many things that are just morally wrong. Unions, Momentum, Peadophiles, Terrorist supporters, Robin Hood style politics..."

    It's just the unthinking regurgitated polarised bollocks you'd expect from an adolescent who's started reading the Daily Mail.

    The Uk polling for the last year or 2 has Tories at 40% - 50%
    This is "nearly half" of voters

    I personally wouldn't put any bets on labour winning the next election, the tides have turned before each recent election

    I too, like to remind people that it's daft to expect people to treat political parties like a religion where you believe and agree with everything they say. I agree and disagree with specific policies of all the parties for example.

    However, my point was that capo's views are not extreme, they are pretty typical.
    Let's deconstruct the list you give:
    The Labour Party have so many things that are just morally wrong. Unions, Momentum, Peadophiles, Terrorist supporters, Robin Hood style politics..."

    Unions, 

    It's a simple fact that some unions have an approach that is very much disliked by many. The pattern of striking can be very provocative.
    Some are actually corrupt. See Private eye for the last year or 2 to see the frankly disgusting way in which McCluskey has retained power, expelled his rival from the union, and retained his union-paid luxury London flat.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/02/unite-legal-challenge-len-mccluskey-gerard-coyne-calls-for-poll-rerun
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/20/unite-union-gerard-coyne-suspended-west-midlands-len-mccluskey-uk
    https://order-order.com/2017/04/20/len-purges-coyne/
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/20/unite-official-gerard-coyne-who-lost-to-len-mccluskey-in-leadership-race-sacked


    Momentum,
    I've seen things I don't like about the conduct of these guys, I can easily believe that most tory voters dislike them


    Peadophiles
    It's a fact that a paedophile organisation was affiliated to Liberty
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paedophile_Information_Exchange
    says that Harriet Harman said that nude photos of kids should not be considered indecent
    therefore, the subject is available for mudslinging

    Terrorist supporters,
    there is quite a lot of material around to encourage anyone arguing this case, and evidence that many share this belief:
    https://order-order.com/2017/06/08/100-times-jeremy-corbyn-sided-terrorists/
    https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/jeremy-corbyn-has-blood-on-his-hands-from-ira-support-former-terrorist-says-35741452.html


    Robin Hood style politics...
    "
    I assume he would mean "take more from the rich to give to the poor"
    I would assume that the vast majority of tory voters believe this, I think it's pretty obviously true:
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/07/no-tax-rises-for-people-on-less-than-80000-pledges-john-mcdonnell

    To conclude: he's simply representing a huge section of the electorate in this echo chamber, with no one else to back him up, he's not an extremist, he's just a very naughty boy, and he's not alone - the argument in this thread has largely descended into personal insults
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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 4062
    ICBM said:
    As far as I can tell, capo4th seems to believe that the better-off should pay less tax because governments waste money. While it is true that this waste does happen, the reality is that every government - of both parties - claims, and genuinely tries, to reduce waste. In practice it turns out to be very difficult and little is achieved, but when overall spending is reduced instead to try to do the same thing, the least well-off suffer the most.

    The Tories reduce taxes, but are no more successful at reducing waste, and only slightly at reducing spending, than Labour. Hence what actually happens is that government borrowing increases under the Tories more than it does under Labour, and repayment is lower. Although this is contrary to popular 'wisdom' it isn't something I'm making up, it's what the official government borrowing figures over the last seventy years show, conclusively. And at the same time under the lower-tax, lower-spending Tories, the least well-off suffer - while the better-off benefit from lower taxes.

    When the government runs a deficit, the national debt increases. The interest on this is now the fifth largest single item of government expenditure, roughly equivalent to the entire defence budget - that's the *real* waste. The huge debt responsible for this was largely incurred under Tory chancellor George Osborne, who managed to borrow more than all the Labour governments in history put together. But when the economy started to pick up and he had the opportunity to either reduce the deficit, or ease the 'austerity' which is hurting so many people, which did he choose? Neither - he reduced taxes for the better-off instead. That is Tory economics in a nutshell.

    The only time since WWII when a Tory government has run a surplus was in the late 1980s when they were selling off public assets at fire-sale prices.

    On top of all this the Tories have mismanaged the economy so badly that they have produced three major and two minor recessions since WWII, against Labour's one major and one minor - even if you include Osborne's 'double dip' recession as a continuation of Brown's. If you don't then it's six to two. It's also worth remembering that the "1970s", which are usually used as an illustration of Labour's shortcomings, were in fact under Tory governments for half the decade - and Heath's government of 1970-1974 was responsible for most of it, including introducing the three-day week... not Labour.

    The Tories - again contrary to all public perception, but quite clearly so if you look at the historical evidence - are actually the party of economic incompetence. The reason this country is in the shit is precisely because they believe in lowering taxes ahead of any other priority, and follow it up with privatisation and contracting out which largely rewards their corporate friends and donors at the public expense.

    Why people fall for the Tory myth, I really don't know. Or actually, I do know - it's because they're taken in by the bribe of lower taxes. But why Labour don't make more use of the real figures is even more puzzling.
    There is certainly no reason to guarantee that the conservatives will be more competent than anyone else in running the country, however I am not so sure that Labour is any more competent, unless you consider that the measurement on competence is based on simply looking at the smallest figure on "tax collected minus money spent". The tories believe that lower taxes and lower spending promote the economy, so they would measure success in a different way

    If we look at the most recent history, the tories have reduced spending:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39897498

    I don't think you are correct about Osborne borrowing more than Labour, the bulk of the borrowing was done before he came into office, and since then it's been smaller increases in debt, which of course are also affected by interest payments 
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_national_debt#/media/File:UK_Debt_to_GDP_ratio.png
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 31571
    ToneControl said:

    There is certainly no reason to guarantee that the conservatives will be more competent than anyone else in running the country, however I am not so sure that Labour is any more competent, unless you consider that the measurement on competence is based on simply looking at the smallest figure on "tax collected minus money spent". The tories believe that lower taxes and lower spending promote the economy, so they would measure success in a different way

    If we look at the most recent history, the tories have reduced spending:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39897498

    I don't think you are correct about Osborne borrowing more than Labour, the bulk of the borrowing was done before he came into office
    Check the figures. Total Labour borrowing for all their governments - including Brown’s - was about £500billion, whereas the borrowing in only the last seven years under Osborne and Hammond was well over £600billion.

    I don’t disagree that it isn’t the only useful measure, but it is baffling that Labour are always tarred as the party of high borrowing, when in fact the opposite is true.

    It’s no good boosting the economy if you don’t use the results of that to pay back the money you borrowed to get there... even if it’s actually true that the Tories boost the economy, which when you look at the record of recessions is also debatable. Particularly when the ones which can’t easily be blamed on outside factors like the 1973 oil crisis and the 2007 crash are all Tory ones.

    I’m certainly not saying Labour are perfect - far from it - but all the evidence is that the idea that the Tories are more economically competent - which seems to be one of the main reasons a lot of people vote for them - is simply untrue. How and why it’s become so ingrained, I really don’t know.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11019

    The Uk polling for the last year or 2 has Tories at 40% - 50%
    This is "nearly half" of voters

    I personally wouldn't put any bets on labour winning the next election, the tides have turned before each recent election

    ---

    To conclude: he's simply representing a huge section of the electorate in this echo chamber, with no one else to back him up, he's not an extremist, he's just a very naughty boy, and he's not alone - the argument in this thread has largely descended into personal insults


    It is not surprising that you wouldn't bet on Labour, given your predictions in the past about UKIP gaining major ground post-EU referendum and Labour to lose a lot of seats. 

    What I've never seen with you is a measured analysis of the Conservative side. Red Len is indeed an arse but there's hardly a lack of Conservative equivalents. Momentum have their problems but I didn't see you speak that much over the Elliott Johnson case. Your reference to paedophilia here is shallow and that you propose mudslinging instead of anything deeper says a lot. 

    Corbyn the terrorist supporter--- versus the recent Conservative leaders who suck up at Saudi Arabia in order to sell weapons that end up being used in the Yemen or who end up in Egypt with arms dealers post-Mubarak overthrow as Cameron did. 

    As for Capo, he can have any opinion he wishes. Even the factually incorrect ones. 
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • GarthyGarthy Frets: 1689
    Emp_Fab said:
    I think Jeremy Corbyn would make a great PM.  He's one of the few politicians I have any real respect for.  The other good man I respected greatly was Tony Benn.  I can't honestly think of any of the current lot on the Govt benches that I would trust to do the right thing by the people rather than their own greasy palms.
    @Emp_Fab - just out of interest, what will be your Land Value Tax each year if John McDonnell gets the keys to No11?
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  • scrumhalfscrumhalf Frets: 4743
    Getting back to the NHS, I've had two hospital appointments this week.

    They, and their aftermath, were further evidence that when hospital and patient admin is run by idiots, you get sub-optimal outcomes that require more time to be spent sorting out the cockups. It's got sodall to do with money, it's to do with competence, and being able to complain about and get resolution within an acceptable timescale.

    Get rid of the people who are incompetent and employ people who can actually do the job they're being paid to do.
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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 4062

    The Uk polling for the last year or 2 has Tories at 40% - 50%
    This is "nearly half" of voters

    I personally wouldn't put any bets on labour winning the next election, the tides have turned before each recent election

    ---

    To conclude: he's simply representing a huge section of the electorate in this echo chamber, with no one else to back him up, he's not an extremist, he's just a very naughty boy, and he's not alone - the argument in this thread has largely descended into personal insults


    It is not surprising that you wouldn't bet on Labour, given your predictions in the past about UKIP gaining major ground post-EU referendum and Labour to lose a lot of seats. 

    What I've never seen with you is a measured analysis of the Conservative side. Red Len is indeed an arse but there's hardly a lack of Conservative equivalents. Momentum have their problems but I didn't see you speak that much over the Elliott Johnson case. Your reference to paedophilia here is shallow and that you propose mudslinging instead of anything deeper says a lot. 

    Corbyn the terrorist supporter--- versus the recent Conservative leaders who suck up at Saudi Arabia in order to sell weapons that end up being used in the Yemen or who end up in Egypt with arms dealers post-Mubarak overthrow as Cameron did. 

    As for Capo, he can have any opinion he wishes. Even the factually incorrect ones. 

    I expect to disagree with the tories, so not very newsworthy for me when I do
    I am no expert on polling, who is these days?

    My point was that Capo's views are pretty mainstream
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11019
    I expect to disagree with the tories, so not very newsworthy for me when I do
    I am no expert on polling, who is these days?

    My point was that Capo's views are pretty mainstream

    Mainstream they are, certainly when you compare his views to the majority of the Conservative newspapers. That doesn't make the mainstream correct or right or sensible. So much discussion around at the minute about freedom of speech: it's a shame that there isn't more about quality of thought. There's an awful lot of people speaking without doing very much thinking. 

    Do you consider Corbyn's views to be mainstream?
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 13038
    edited February 2
    I'm happy to rejoin briefly if we've got a hiatus from the trombonist.

    @garthy ;;; It doesn't apply to me as I don't own my house.  Like millions across the country I've never been able to get on the housing ladder.  In any case, my political opinions don't revolve around what party is likely to benefit me the most.

    @Tonecontrol
    The Uk polling for the last year or 2 has Tories at 40% - 50%
    This is "nearly half" of voters
    I don't know what point you are making here, sorry.
    I personally wouldn't put any bets on labour winning the next election, the tides have turned before each recent election
    Indeed they have.  However, Capo's assertion was that Labour are so far from power it's laughable.  Which is clearly nonsense.  
    However, my point was that capo's views are not extreme, they are pretty typical.
    I disagree.  I refuse to accept (without evidence) that such beliefs are commonplace.

    Let's deconstruct the list you give:
    The Labour Party have so many things that are just morally wrong. Unions, Momentum, Peadophiles, Terrorist supporters, Robin Hood style 
    Oh come on...  you can't just present a list of cherry-picked allegations and half-truths as evidence of anything !!

    I won't address the points he listed, and you supported, one by one as it's just nonsense.  No organisation is without fault, but highlighting cherry-picked allegations (some of which I don't see as being a problem anyway !) as evidence that the entire Labour party is morally corrupt and supremely unfit to run the country is extremist claptrap.  There is no intelligent debate on offer from him regarding good or bad points of policy.  It's black and white, good vs evil...  it's juvenile.  It's Milo Yiannopoulos, Sean Hannity, Paul Dacre.  It's absolutely not an accurate reflection of the majority.  As you may tell, I am not a Conservative supporter, but I would balk at painting all conservatives as morally bankrupt perverts.

    To conclude: he's simply representing a huge section of the electorate in this echo chamber, with no one else to back him up.

    If he's representing a huge section of the electorate (which this forum is a subset of), why has nobody else come forward to back him up then ?

    Odd that - don't you think ?

    98% shouting at clouds and 2% laminate flooring
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  • GarthyGarthy Frets: 1689
    Emp_Fab said:
    I'm happy to rejoin briefly if we've got a hiatus from the trombonist.

    @garthy ;;; It doesn't apply to me as I don't own my house.  Like millions across the country I've never been able to get on the housing ladder.  In any case, my political opinions don't revolve around what party is likely to benefit me the most.


    If he's representing a huge section of the electorate (which this forum is a subset of), why has nobody else come forward to back him up then ?

    Odd that - don't you think ?

    Please accept my apologies for the lack of formatting here, I'm not au fait with the way this forum works.

    LTV- if you've got a roof over your head then you're paying it.

    Political opinions- voting for the party that benefits you is the purist form of democracy there is, it literally represents the will of the people. Otherwise we are no better than when only land owners and noblemen had a vote and a say in direction of the country. Taken to the Nth degree this concept leads us to dictatorship.

    This forum is in no way a representation of the electorate. No matter where I am, who I am talking to or what I'm reading I am in the middle of the road with two exceptions, the Morning Star and this forum which is even further left than that (by volume of posts). Every time I take the political compass test I am within .05 units of the crosshairs on any two axis in any of the four directions, the only variation depending on which 20 of the 50 questions it asks, yet this place makes me feel like Attila the Hun. I've voted Lib Dems in the local elections for the last 20 years and have voted for all three major parties and two independents in General Elections so no I don't think it's odd at all that Capo4th is largely alone in this forum in airing an opinion from the right of the center ground.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11019
    edited February 2
    Garthy said:
    Please accept my apologies for the lack of formatting here, I'm not au fait with the way this forum works.

    LTV- if you've got a roof over your head then you're paying it.

    Political opinions- voting for the party that benefits you is the purist form of democracy there is, it literally represents the will of the people. Otherwise we are no better than when only land owners and noblemen had a vote and a say in direction of the country. Taken to the Nth degree this concept leads us to dictatorship.

    This forum is in no way a representation of the electorate. No matter where I am, who I am talking to or what I'm reading I am in the middle of the road with two exceptions, the Morning Star and this forum which is even further left than that (by volume of posts). Every time I take the political compass test I am within .05 units of the crosshairs on any two axis in any of the four directions, the only variation depending on which 20 of the 50 questions it asks, yet this place makes me feel like Attila the Hun. I've voted Lib Dems in the local elections for the last 20 years and have voted for all three major parties and two independents in General Elections so no I don't think it's odd at all that Capo4th is largely alone in this forum in airing an opinion from the right of the center ground.

    The purity of democracy is debatable with this example. To you it may be the purist form of voting but that vote and end result still depends on the system employed to determine victors. In other words, the purity of the vote cast is rather scuppered in my eyes by the FPTP system that we have in this country. 

    So here's a question for you, Garthy: imagine a billionaire who decides that he wants to vote for Labour and accept that his income will be far more heavily taxed in the future. He seems it as the right thing to do. Is his vote less pure because he's voting for a party that will benefit him far less than voting for a party that believes in lower taxation? 

    Since the change with politics being shunted out of the main arena, the number of people posting politically has dropped considerably. It's fair to say that those still posting now like my good self do go with the left of centre approach but two years ago when the politics was right out there, it was a lot closer together. 

    It isn't that Capo is airing a right of centre opinion: it's the regularity of utter nonsense. His claim earlier in this thread about it being more expensive to park in a Welsh hospital than an English hospital is a prime example. It's been nearly ten years since the announcement came out about the move to free parking in most Welsh hospitals. Research and fact checking are not his forte. 

    PS: Attila the Hun? Not in the slightest. Well, at least I don't think it and I was meant to be a raging socialist a couple of years ago... 

    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • capo4thcapo4th Frets: 3181
    Emp_Fab said:
    capo4th said:
    I am intrigued as to why you think my views are extreme? 
    that's a fair point @Emp_Fab ;;;, I don't think he's said anything that isn't mainstream tory type stuff
    It's nearly half of all voters he's speaking for here, not some isolated tiny minority
    I'm only back here because of the notification that you mentioned me...

    He's not speaking for "nearly half of all voters" any more than Nigel Farage is !  Have you read some of the things he's posted in this thread ?!

    People's political beliefs aren't binary.  "If you didn't vote Labour, you must agree with (swivel-eyed statement)".

    He spouts extremist nonsense that is demonstrably untrue and wilfully refuses to research his assertions or retract them when proved wrong.  His almost childlike polarised viewpoint about a political party that, in all likelihood, will win the next general election (and his outright refusal to even contemplate the evidence supporting this).  I could go on, but I'll leave you with one sentence of his that confirmed my belief that he's a fundamentalist extremist.  This nonsense is not what "nearly half of all voters" believe...  "The Labour Party have so many things that are just morally wrong. Unions, Momentum, Peadophiles, Terrorist supporters, Robin Hood style politics..."

    It's just the unthinking regurgitated polarised bollocks you'd expect from an adolescent who's started reading the Daily Mail.

    The Uk polling for the last year or 2 has Tories at 40% - 50%
    This is "nearly half" of voters

    I personally wouldn't put any bets on labour winning the next election, the tides have turned before each recent election

    I too, like to remind people that it's daft to expect people to treat political parties like a religion where you believe and agree with everything they say. I agree and disagree with specific policies of all the parties for example.

    However, my point was that capo's views are not extreme, they are pretty typical.
    Let's deconstruct the list you give:
    The Labour Party have so many things that are just morally wrong. Unions, Momentum, Peadophiles, Terrorist supporters, Robin Hood style politics..."

    Unions, 

    It's a simple fact that some unions have an approach that is very much disliked by many. The pattern of striking can be very provocative.
    Some are actually corrupt. See Private eye for the last year or 2 to see the frankly disgusting way in which McCluskey has retained power, expelled his rival from the union, and retained his union-paid luxury London flat.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/02/unite-legal-challenge-len-mccluskey-gerard-coyne-calls-for-poll-rerun
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/20/unite-union-gerard-coyne-suspended-west-midlands-len-mccluskey-uk
    https://order-order.com/2017/04/20/len-purges-coyne/
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/20/unite-official-gerard-coyne-who-lost-to-len-mccluskey-in-leadership-race-sacked


    Momentum,
    I've seen things I don't like about the conduct of these guys, I can easily believe that most tory voters dislike them


    Peadophiles
    It's a fact that a paedophile organisation was affiliated to Liberty
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paedophile_Information_Exchange
    says that Harriet Harman said that nude photos of kids should not be considered indecent
    therefore, the subject is available for mudslinging

    Terrorist supporters,
    there is quite a lot of material around to encourage anyone arguing this case, and evidence that many share this belief:
    https://order-order.com/2017/06/08/100-times-jeremy-corbyn-sided-terrorists/
    https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/jeremy-corbyn-has-blood-on-his-hands-from-ira-support-former-terrorist-says-35741452.html


    Robin Hood style politics...
    "
    I assume he would mean "take more from the rich to give to the poor"
    I would assume that the vast majority of tory voters believe this, I think it's pretty obviously true:
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/07/no-tax-rises-for-people-on-less-than-80000-pledges-john-mcdonnell

    To conclude: he's simply representing a huge section of the electorate in this echo chamber, with no one else to back him up, he's not an extremist, he's just a very naughty boy, and he's not alone - the argument in this thread has largely descended into personal insults
    Thanks ToneControl for bringing some reality to the emperor. I am not a extremist in any way shape or form. 

    I could add to your sections above very easily with numerous examples but won’t.  For some people the truth hurts their belief system. I don’t expect any / much support on a musicians forum. Frankly I couldn’t give two fucks what anyone thinks life goes on and the wheels keep turning. 

    Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party are not the answer to anyone’s troubles.

    Life is short make changes and make them now if your not happy with your lot.

    Emps evidence that Labour will win the next general election from oddschecker.com sums up Labour Party Logic.  

    Ps I dont read the daily mail


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  • capo4thcapo4th Frets: 3181


    The Uk polling for the last year or 2 has Tories at 40% - 50%
    This is "nearly half" of voters

    I personally wouldn't put any bets on labour winning the next election, the tides have turned before each recent election

    ---

    To conclude: he's simply representing a huge section of the electorate in this echo chamber, with no one else to back him up, he's not an extremist, he's just a very naughty boy, and he's not alone - the argument in this thread has largely descended into personal insults


    It is not surprising that you wouldn't bet on Labour, given your predictions in the past about UKIP gaining major ground post-EU referendum and Labour to lose a lot of seats. 

    What I've never seen with you is a measured analysis of the Conservative side. Red Len is indeed an arse but there's hardly a lack of Conservative equivalents. Momentum have their problems but I didn't see you speak that much over the Elliott Johnson case. Your reference to paedophilia here is shallow and that you propose mudslinging instead of anything deeper says a lot. 

    Corbyn the terrorist supporter--- versus the recent Conservative leaders who suck up at Saudi Arabia in order to sell weapons that end up being used in the Yemen or who end up in Egypt with arms dealers post-Mubarak overthrow as Cameron did. 

    As for Capo, he can have any opinion he wishes. Even the factually incorrect ones. 
    Thanks HFD

    There are numerous examples of the Labour Party supporting child abuse and protecting peodophiles.

    I will not link or list them rest assured you won’t have to look hard to find the evidence.
    No mudslinging required.
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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 4062
    I expect to disagree with the tories, so not very newsworthy for me when I do
    I am no expert on polling, who is these days?

    My point was that Capo's views are pretty mainstream

    Mainstream they are, certainly when you compare his views to the majority of the Conservative newspapers. That doesn't make the mainstream correct or right or sensible. So much discussion around at the minute about freedom of speech: it's a shame that there isn't more about quality of thought. There's an awful lot of people speaking without doing very much thinking. 

    Do you consider Corbyn's views to be mainstream?
    hmm, as a whole, perhaps less mainstream than Capo's
    but obviously Jezza's views on different topics vary in left-ness
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  • capo4thcapo4th Frets: 3181

    Emp_Fab said:
    I'm happy to rejoin briefly if we've got a hiatus from the trombonist.

    @garthy ;;; It doesn't apply to me as I don't own my house.  Like millions across the country I've never been able to get on the housing ladder.  In any case, my political opinions don't revolve around what party is likely to benefit me the most.

    @Tonecontrol
    The Uk polling for the last year or 2 has Tories at 40% - 50%
    This is "nearly half" of voters
    I don't know what point you are making here, sorry.
    I personally wouldn't put any bets on labour winning the next election, the tides have turned before each recent election
    Indeed they have.  However, Capo's assertion was that Labour are so far from power it's laughable.  Which is clearly nonsense.  
    However, my point was that capo's views are not extreme, they are pretty typical.
    I disagree.  I refuse to accept (without evidence) that such beliefs are commonplace.

    Let's deconstruct the list you give:
    The Labour Party have so many things that are just morally wrong. Unions, Momentum, Peadophiles, Terrorist supporters, Robin Hood style 
    Oh come on...  you can't just present a list of cherry-picked allegations and half-truths as evidence of anything !!

    I won't address the points he listed, and you supported, one by one as it's just nonsense.  No organisation is without fault, but highlighting cherry-picked allegations (some of which I don't see as being a problem anyway !) as evidence that the entire Labour party is morally corrupt and supremely unfit to run the country is extremist claptrap.  There is no intelligent debate on offer from him regarding good or bad points of policy.  It's black and white, good vs evil...  it's juvenile.  It's Milo Yiannopoulos, Sean Hannity, Paul Dacre.  It's absolutely not an accurate reflection of the majority.  As you may tell, I am not a Conservative supporter, but I would balk at painting all conservatives as morally bankrupt perverts.

    To conclude: he's simply representing a huge section of the electorate in this echo chamber, with no one else to back him up.

    If he's representing a huge section of the electorate (which this forum is a subset of), why has nobody else come forward to back him up then ?

    Odd that - don't you think ?

    @Emp_Fab you have really embarrassed yourself with that thread. I voted Tory in the last election happy to admit it. Very few musicians will admit to voting Tory on here but I tell you there are more than you think. 

    ToneControl was highlighting to you that nearly half the voting population vote Tory. They are actually quite a popular political party in the U.K. millions of people vote for them at polling stations around the U.K. 

    To say my points are nonsense ??? I would say my statement below was bang on! 

    The Labour Party have so many things that are just morally wrong. Unions, Momentum, Peadophiles, Terrorist supporters, Robin Hood style politics.


    Oommpah Oommpah Oommpah pah pah 




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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 4062
    Emp_Fab said:
    I'm happy to rejoin briefly if we've got a hiatus from the trombonist.

    @garthy ;;; It doesn't apply to me as I don't own my house.  Like millions across the country I've never been able to get on the housing ladder.  In any case, my political opinions don't revolve around what party is likely to benefit me the most.

    @Tonecontrol
    The Uk polling for the last year or 2 has Tories at 40% - 50%
    This is "nearly half" of voters
    I don't know what point you are making here, sorry.


    I personally wouldn't put any bets on labour winning the next election, the tides have turned before each recent election
    Indeed they have.  However, Capo's assertion was that Labour are so far from power it's laughable.  Which is clearly nonsense.  
    However, my point was that capo's views are not extreme, they are pretty typical.
    I disagree.  I refuse to accept (without evidence) that such beliefs are commonplace.

    Let's deconstruct the list you give:
    The Labour Party have so many things that are just morally wrong. Unions, Momentum, Peadophiles, Terrorist supporters, Robin Hood style 
    Oh come on...  you can't just present a list of cherry-picked allegations and half-truths as evidence of anything !!

    I won't address the points he listed, and you supported, one by one as it's just nonsense.  No organisation is without fault, but highlighting cherry-picked allegations (some of which I don't see as being a problem anyway !) as evidence that the entire Labour party is morally corrupt and supremely unfit to run the country is extremist claptrap.  There is no intelligent debate on offer from him regarding good or bad points of policy.  It's black and white, good vs evil...  it's juvenile.  It's Milo Yiannopoulos, Sean Hannity, Paul Dacre.  It's absolutely not an accurate reflection of the majority.  As you may tell, I am not a Conservative supporter, but I would balk at painting all conservatives as morally bankrupt perverts.

    To conclude: he's simply representing a huge section of the electorate in this echo chamber, with no one else to back him up.

    If he's representing a huge section of the electorate (which this forum is a subset of), why has nobody else come forward to back him up then ?

    Odd that - don't you think ?

    40-50%:
    point is tory voters are not some tiny nutty minority. 
    The fact that his views are commonplace is clearly implicit in that everyone keeps mocking him, asking if he reads the Daily Mail, which sells very well to large numbers of Tory voters. Do you seriously, seriously believe that his views are rare and extreme? They honestly aren't

    I took the list you quoted, and demonstrated that each item has been a genuine news item likely to inspire a strong opinion in tory voters - intention being to demonstrate that Capo's view are not rare or "made up". Clearly it's mostly mudslinging

    Your best question is why no one is backing him up. That's probably down to quite a few separate issues, but mostly that this bit of the forum has become a left-leaning echo chamber
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  • capo4thcapo4th Frets: 3181
    @Garthy this thread is a little one sided eh?

    Sometimes I feel a little bullied when all those big musicians start shouting at me and I need to go and sit in a corner and eat an entire bag of haribos all to myself.


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  • capo4thcapo4th Frets: 3181
    Thanks for being rational ToneControl 
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  • capo4thcapo4th Frets: 3181
    @Heartfeltdawn  you keep bringing up parking charges.

    I was not aware parking charges were low in Wales or had even been abolished.
    I was highlighting that as people in wales spend longer waiting in A&E than England they would incur more costs in the car park.  I presumed all hospitals rip people off with parking this was obviously incorrect.

    Waiting times in Wales are longer.  I apologise if I offended you with my parking analogy but was clearly not up to speed with Welsh Parking charges. 

    The Welsh NHS run by Labour performs at a lower level than the English NHS in a majority of areas.

    Maybe they should increase their parking charges and generate some cash.


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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11019
    And the reason I mention it is in reply to your comment to Thomas. As quoted:

    "You will spend more time in the a+e waiting room drinking shit coffee and paying more parking charges if you live in Wales."

    So if you're unaware of something that has been in operation for a number of years, then it calls into question the quality of your information in other areas. 

    Waiting times in Wales are not longer for all operations. If you care to read this link, it will show that Wales saw longer wait times in 7 out of 11 indicators. 

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-38670356

    It's incorrect to state that you will wait longer in Wales than in England. It depends on what you're waiting for and some surgeries will see you actually treated quicker than in England, as the heart bypass and kidney surgery indicators show. 

    Now this may seem like pedanticity in action. It's a desire for clarity and focus rather than blanket statements. 



    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11019
    40-50%:
    point is tory voters are not some tiny nutty minority. 
    The fact that his views are commonplace is clearly implicit in that everyone keeps mocking him, asking if he reads the Daily Mail, which sells very well to large numbers of Tory voters. Do you seriously, seriously believe that his views are rare and extreme? They honestly aren't

    I took the list you quoted, and demonstrated that each item has been a genuine news item likely to inspire a strong opinion in tory voters - intention being to demonstrate that Capo's view are not rare or "made up". Clearly it's mostly mudslinging

    Your best question is why no one is backing him up. That's probably down to quite a few separate issues, but mostly that this bit of the forum has become a left-leaning echo chamber

    Of course they aren't a tiny nutty majority. Just as 40% of the popular vote means the Labour voters aren't either. Capo regularly disparages the Labour voter yet without a sizeable number of them he wouldn't have ended up in the Brexit majority. Or are Labour Leavers paragons of virtue and LabRemainers are bonkers? 

    Yes this forum has become more left in approach and that is for the reasons I stated early. 


    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11019
    hmm, as a whole, perhaps less mainstream than Capo's
    but obviously Jezza's views on different topics vary in left-ness
    One could say that Madame May's views of various topics vary in right-ness. Her move from free market Thatcherism to a more state-led stance caused many a blue eyebrow to flutter. 

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/18/theresa-may-redefines-conservatism-tories-move-thatcher/


    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • randellarandella Frets: 1797
    Now this may seem like pedanticity in action.

    *pedantry

    ;)
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  • capo4thcapo4th Frets: 3181
    And the reason I mention it is in reply to your comment to Thomas. As quoted:

    "You will spend more time in the a+e waiting room drinking shit coffee and paying more parking charges if you live in Wales."

    So if you're unaware of something that has been in operation for a number of years, then it calls into question the quality of your information in other areas. 

    Waiting times in Wales are not longer for all operations. If you care to read this link, it will show that Wales saw longer wait times in 7 out of 11 indicators. 

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-38670356

    It's incorrect to state that you will wait longer in Wales than in England. It depends on what you're waiting for and some surgeries will see you actually treated quicker than in England, as the heart bypass and kidney surgery indicators show. 

    Now this may seem like pedanticity in action. It's a desire for clarity and focus rather than blanket statements. 



    Please stop clutching at straws. Waiting times are longer in Wales than England that is a fact.

    You would spend more time drinking shit coffee and reading magazines in a Welsh A&E that is a fact .

    A blanket factual statement. If this is what you would wish on the U.K. then god help us.

    If you think things are bad now Jesus be careful what you wish for.

    Corbyn would have the country on its knees very quickly.

    PS I would like to question your random quality information from the bbc article which backs up that things are much worse in Wales. Your information is over a year old.

    The Labour Party controled NHS in Wales has got worse in the 12months since that article was written.
    It wouldn't surprise me if Wales is now worse in all measurable waiting times. 





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  • capo4thcapo4th Frets: 3181

    40-50%:
    point is tory voters are not some tiny nutty minority. 
    The fact that his views are commonplace is clearly implicit in that everyone keeps mocking him, asking if he reads the Daily Mail, which sells very well to large numbers of Tory voters. Do you seriously, seriously believe that his views are rare and extreme? They honestly aren't

    I took the list you quoted, and demonstrated that each item has been a genuine news item likely to inspire a strong opinion in tory voters - intention being to demonstrate that Capo's view are not rare or "made up". Clearly it's mostly mudslinging

    Your best question is why no one is backing him up. That's probably down to quite a few separate issues, but mostly that this bit of the forum has become a left-leaning echo chamber

    Of course they aren't a tiny nutty majority. Just as 40% of the popular vote means the Labour voters aren't either. Capo regularly disparages the Labour voter yet without a sizeable number of them he wouldn't have ended up in the Brexit majority. Or are Labour Leavers paragons of virtue and LabRemainers are bonkers? 

    Yes this forum has become more left in approach and that is for the reasons I stated early. 


    You have clearly been smoking the crack pipe HFD.  I voted remain Brexit is a disaster.  

    When do we we all see that £350 million a week and what date are the borders closing again? 
    Good luck with Brexit
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  • GarthyGarthy Frets: 1689
    1st January 2021 if Barnier gets his way.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11019
    randella said:
    Now this may seem like pedanticity in action.

    *pedantry

    ;)
    After 24 hours of looking after two difficult children, my mind was shot :D
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11019
    edited February 3
    capo4th said:
    Please stop clutching at straws. Waiting times are longer in Wales than England that is a fact.

    You would spend more time drinking shit coffee and reading magazines in a Welsh A&E that is a fact .

    A blanket factual statement. If this is what you would wish on the U.K. then god help us.

    If you think things are bad now Jesus be careful what you wish for.

    Corbyn would have the country on its knees very quickly.

    PS I would like to question your random quality information from the bbc article which backs up that things are much worse in Wales. Your information is over a year old.

    The Labour Party controled NHS in Wales has got worse in the 12months since that article was written.
    It wouldn't surprise me if Wales is now worse in all measurable waiting times. 






    You spend more time drinking shit coffee in Wales - by what metric are you measuring the quality of coffee? What if people in Wales buy coffee and don't drink it? What if you just read magazines without drinking coffee?

    *chuckle*


    Waiting times are longer in Wales than England - in what regard? This is what I mean about your non-specific approach. Waiting times in Wales are longer for 7 out of 11 indicators: they are shorter for 4 indicators. 

    PS: If you want to question my information, then there is a very simple way to do it: to get off your arse, do some research, gather some information, and present it. 

    If things have gotten worse, throw the data up. I'd be happy to agree with you if there is clear data and evidence. 

    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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