HS2 in the SH1..? Carillion collapse...

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 31571
    Fretwired said:

    That's why the directors have gone this route. Looks like the prison service contract may be sorted out - the government may buy it and make the staff public sector employees.
    I was rather hoping that they would make the directors 'customers'... isn't that what they call them now?
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • VimFuegoVimFuego Frets: 6164
    service users is the phrase I believe. 

    I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.

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  • DominicDominic Frets: 3474
    There must be a plan B pre-pack arrangement of some kind but they need to be seen to go through the motions
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  • stickyfiddlestickyfiddle Frets: 9198
    mellowsun said:
    I think the failure of Carrion shows that you can't make a profit running essential public services. Prisons, schools, health should be run in the national interest, not by sharks.

    Edit: looks like the usual 'pump full of debt and extract maximum salaries and bonuses', as I suggested, was in fact the case here:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jan/15/carillion-highly-inappropriate-pay-packets-criticised
    It can be done, and in some cases it works quite well (obviously those ones don't hit the papers though). Unfortunately this one has obviously been "Rover-ed"...
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 2878
    they said on the news today that the C level managers that walked out last year will continue to be paid up until October this year.. CEO is on 600k, CFO on 400k etc

    being paid anything at all not to go to work.. let alone that much..
    absolutely unbelievable 
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • VimFuegoVimFuego Frets: 6164
    they should open it up to tender, I reckon I could be at least as incompetent as them at half the price.

    I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.

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  • NiteflyNitefly Frets: 2056
    I feel really sorry for the little guys who do the bulk of their work - there's little hope of them seeing much of the money they're owed.  Forced to accept 120 days (!) payment terms, and then default on it.  One bloke in this article says he's just had to lay off 10 employees:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42695661

    As for @Clarky 's point about paying the bosses until October - how is that in any way justifiable?  That money should be going into the pot to pay the small suppliers who are otherwise going to go bust.

    Grown most uncommonly fat!
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 2878
    Nitefly said:
    I feel really sorry for the little guys who do the bulk of their work - there's little hope of them seeing much of the money they're owed.  Forced to accept 120 days (!) payment terms, and then default on it.  One bloke in this article says he's just had to lay off 10 employees:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42695661

    As for @Clarky 's point about paying the bosses until October - how is that in any way justifiable?  That money should be going into the pot to pay the small suppliers who are otherwise going to go bust.

    that's so dreadful....

    I heard that those bosses changed the rules regarding their pay and / or bonuses a year ago to make it difficult to prevent them from being paid..
    my guess is that back then they'd have had enough access to data to have clearly seen the writing on the wall and then put things in place to protect themselves..
    and then they resigned within a year..
    I'm not knowledgeable in this sort of thing at all.. but it seems so wrong..
    premeditated and criminal even..
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11019
    Boromedic said:
    Yeah this fits with what I've heard from friends in the MOD as well.
    My father took retirement last month. He's been working for 20 years within Estate Management with the MoD after a career in the public sector revolving around engineering. He says he hasn't seen a greater amount of inefficiency, stupidity, poor management, and waste than he has seen in the last decade. Issues from procurement failures to not ensuring that staff fitting new equipment are actually qualified to do so were commonplace (and when I say fitting equipment, I don't mean new chairs or IT equipment: I'm talking enormous electrical generators for military bases). 
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • GarthyGarthy Frets: 1689
    Clarky said:
    Nitefly said:
    I feel really sorry for the little guys who do the bulk of their work - there's little hope of them seeing much of the money they're owed.  Forced to accept 120 days (!) payment terms, and then default on it.  One bloke in this article says he's just had to lay off 10 employees:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42695661

    As for @Clarky 's point about paying the bosses until October - how is that in any way justifiable?  That money should be going into the pot to pay the small suppliers who are otherwise going to go bust.

    that's so dreadful....

    I heard that those bosses changed the rules regarding their pay and / or bonuses a year ago to make it difficult to prevent them from being paid..
    my guess is that back then they'd have had enough access to data to have clearly seen the writing on the wall and then put things in place to protect themselves..
    and then they resigned within a year..
    I'm not knowledgeable in this sort of thing at all.. but it seems so wrong..
    premeditated and criminal even..
    Perhaps that’s why the company has been liquidated instead of put into administration. 
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11019
    Excellent article from the FT on why liquidation was the way forward. 

    https://www.ft.com/content/a4dd80be-f9f1-11e7-a492-2c9be7f3120a
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16220
    The government has ordered an urgent investigation of Carillion's directors .. looks like prosecutions may be on the cards if half of what has been printed in the broadsheets is true. Bordering on criminal activity.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • GarthyGarthy Frets: 1689
    Fretwired said:
    The government has ordered an urgent investigation of Carillion's directors .. looks like prosecutions may be on the cards if half of what has been printed in the broadsheets is true. Bordering on criminal activity.
    It'll be interesting to see if they qualify for Trading While Insolvent.
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16220
    Update.

    The auditors KPMG are being investigated as well. Now this will be interesting as they signed the most recent accounts off without any warnings.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11019
    It's also interesting as KPMG took the largest amount of government pie in 2016 in cash terms (not number of projects: KPMG took the biggest ones)

    http://economia.icaew.com/en/news/january-2017/kpmg-awarded-401m-in-government-contracts


    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16220
    It's also interesting as KPMG took the largest amount of government pie in 2016 in cash terms (not number of projects: KPMG took the biggest ones)

    http://economia.icaew.com/en/news/january-2017/kpmg-awarded-401m-in-government-contracts


    Both Carillion and KPMG donated funds to the Tory party. Time for the public purse to fund our politics and not rich businessmen.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11019
    Not to mention staff seconded to HMRC and the Treasury by all the accounting firms. 
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • Phil_aka_PipPhil_aka_Pip Frets: 8779
    Not to mention staff seconded to HMRC and the Treasury by all the accounting firms. 
    who at the end of their secondment report back to their respective employers about how to circumvent the rules enacted during their secondment
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 31571
    Fretwired said:

    Both Carillion and KPMG donated funds to the Tory party.
    Surely not!
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • BoromedicBoromedic Frets: 760
    Boromedic said:
    Yeah this fits with what I've heard from friends in the MOD as well.
    My father took retirement last month. He's been working for 20 years within Estate Management with the MoD after a career in the public sector revolving around engineering. He says he hasn't seen a greater amount of inefficiency, stupidity, poor management, and waste than he has seen in the last decade. Issues from procurement failures to not ensuring that staff fitting new equipment are actually qualified to do so were commonplace (and when I say fitting equipment, I don't mean new chairs or IT equipment: I'm talking enormous electrical generators for military bases). 
    Yeah thats exactly the feedback I've had, one of my colleagues and his wife were long term MOD employees and the outsourcing to Carillion was just an open door for ineptitude, waste, and just plain poor management.

    .....and what to my wondering eyes should appear.....      nothing.......


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  • marantz1300marantz1300 Frets: 1470
    edited January 16

    It's capitalism at its worse.

    the Tories give them the contracts.

    they fund the Tories

    The boss's cream all the money off.

    the workers lose everything.

    somehow its legal.

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  • SambostarSambostar Frets: 8375
    We pay for the work, we pay the pensions, we pay the banks.  A few get obscenely rich for grossly under quoting and subbing their work to their own newly formed companies.  Seems perfectly fair to me of you sleep with a handgun and a grenade under your pillow.  Nevermind that what about black slavery, terrible issue that.
    It's the Playbus. We're not in control of ourselves. You're only as dumb as you're trained
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11019
    edited January 16
    Blimey, the hibernation season has ended early this year. 
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11019
    And time for a cheap laugh... from Richard Howson's LinkedIn profile. Integrity indeed!

    https://i.imgur.com/SR0rfXG.png
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16220
    Ha ha ..

    Looks like the receiver has pulled a fast one .. all legal. The main creditors (banks) and shareholders have been have been told they won't get paid a penny by way of compensation so the business can pretty much function. The government has stumped up some cash to cover the public sector contracts so there's a chance the whole shebang could be sold as a going concern. The receiver is writing to all the subcontractors to check if their happy to continue and guaranteeing payments for their work. The only losers seem to be the banks and the shareholders. The main board of directors will be sacked.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • NiteflyNitefly Frets: 2056
    @Fretwired - do you know if that includes the non-public sector stuff?  Lidington was saying this morning that they would only be good for 48 hours.

    Grown most uncommonly fat!
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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 4062
    edited January 16
    I hope to learn more about the inside story on Carillion tomorrow from a mate who works in the sector

    they did a wider range of stuff than I was aware of:
    https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/BA73/production/_99613774_carillion_past_640-nc.png
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16220
    Nitefly said:
    @Fretwired - do you know if that includes the non-public sector stuff?  Lidington was saying this morning that they would only be good for 48 hours.

    As far as I am aware the government are only covering public sector contracts. The receivers maybe able to save some of the rest.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • marantz1300marantz1300 Frets: 1470
    Is the Carillion Philip Green ,the same Debenhams Philip Green who nicked the pensions for his £100,000,000 floating village super yatch?
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 31571
    Is the Carillion Philip Green ,the same Debenhams Philip Green who nicked the pensions for his £100,000,000 floating village super yatch?
    No. That's "Sir" Philip Green.

    But if I ever come across someone called Philip Green, I'll make doubly sure to check my wallet afterwards...
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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