Another Attenuator Question

asimmd

Do I need an Attenuator if my amp has a Master Volume?

Collings

Well the MV is designed to give you an overdriven sound at lower volumes. So it depends on how good/well your MV works. In my experience a good MV works better for me than using an attenuation.

merlin

It depends on what you use the Master Volume for. 

The MV basically adjusts the volume of the power section of the amp, enabling you to crank the pre-amp section and get all the pre-amp valve juice flowing. However, with the MV set at low, you won't get any saturation from the power section. If you want to hear that then you'll need an attenuator to play at low volumes. 

Having said that, the tone of a good tube amp will be somewhat compromised if the speaker isn't really singing. Also, the way we hear means that our listening apparatus responds differently to loud than quiet....we need to have a decent amount of air moving to really get "that" sound. 

asimmd

Thanks guys

I have just ordered a Vox AC30HW2X that has a MV.

I only play clean sounds so no distortion needed.

I do have a Weber mini mass but I don't think it will handle the AC30 but the

Attenuator is rated at 25watts so if I don't turn the amp up which I wont be I

reckon it should be ok.

I'm really using it as a load box for recording so Attenuation may not be a problem.

ICBM

If you're only playing clean you probably don't need it, but if you're playing *very* quiet and clean, sometimes a master volume can make the sound a bit 'lifeless' when it's only just on. In which case you can use the attenuator to just allow you to turn the amp up a tiny bit, to the point it starts to sound good, without cranking it up all the way. For that, the Weber should be OK even with an AC30.

You may be surprised how much of that Shadows sound comes from starting to push the amp a bit harder though - not to where it distorts, but to where the power stage starts to compress. If you find you start to get "the sound" at about that point, you may need a bigger attenuator. The good news is that the Harley Benton/Jet City one is cheap and purely resistive (what you really need for an AC30) and rated for 80W which is plenty.

asimmd

Thanks ICBM

So even if I am using the Attenuator as a load box just for recording (No Attenuation) would I still

be better off getting the Harley Benton/Jet City?

ICBM

asimmd said:

So even if I am using the Attenuator as a load box just for recording (No Attenuation) would I still

be better off getting the Harley Benton/Jet City?

Maybe. The Weber is rated for 25W, but their ratings are for electrical power input rather than amp power (which can almost double when overdriven), so although fine for an AC15 is really too low for an AC30, especially if you're using it as a load box where you could easily turn the amp up a bit further than normal without noticing.

But I've just read something about the Harley Benton (which almost certainly applies to the Jet City as well) which could be a major problem... according to this  https://blog.brixit.nl/harley-benton-power-attenuator-measurement-and-teardown  the line output is derived from the *cabinet* connection not the amp input, so you can't use it as a load box for silent recording. If true that's really stupid design!

For now I would just use the Weber carefully - check it every now and then for getting excessively hot. If it isn't, you're fine. "Excessive" would be if you can't keep your hand on the casing indefinitely.

asimmd

Well thanks for looking it up - its a good job I didn't order one.

I will try the Weber Mini Mass 25watt that I have bearing in mind your comments but

that means I will need to look for something more suitable if needed.

As you have previously suggested the Mini Mass 50watt would be fine but the cost is really high.

Mini Mass $135

Shipping $100

Import Duty say £50

VAT say £50

Plus the handling charge come to over £260.

sweepy

I’ve never found an Attenuator that sounded any good tbh, I have used THD, Marshall Power Brake and Tone King Iron Man, they all killed the tone of the amp imho

ICBM

asimmd said:

As you have previously suggested the Mini Mass 50watt would be fine but the cost is really high.

Mini Mass $135

Shipping $100

Import Duty say £50

VAT say £50

Plus the handling charge come to over £260.

That's too much for one of those. Keep a look out for a second hand Dr.Z Airbrake, you'll get one for less than that.

eg this one - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DR-Z-AIR-BRAKE-SPEAKER-ATTENUATOR/183024221767?hash=item2a9d17fe47:g:8TgAAOSwBRVaYHN6

sweepy said:

I’ve never found an Attenuator that sounded any good tbh, I have used THD, Marshall Power Brake and Tone King Iron Man, they all killed the tone of the amp imho

Which amp, and how were you using them? I've never found that with the Powerbrake or the THD when used with the right amp, and when not trying to turn a cranked non-MV amp into a low-volume practice amp. I haven't tried the Tone King.

p90fool

sweepy said:

I’ve never found an Attenuator that sounded any good tbh, I have used THD, Marshall Power Brake and Tone King Iron Man, they all killed the tone of the amp imho

The Power Brake is excellent for knocking a Superlead down to pub gigging levels in my experience. 

sweepy

THD with Mesa Mk4 and Caliber 50, Marshall Powerbrake with a. Plexi, JCM 800 and 900, Iron Man as was built into my Sky King, sounded terrible considering the rave reviews and it does make you wonder if some people are deaf as posts 

ICBM

Strange, I've had great results with the THD and Mesas (DC-5 and Trem-o-verb) and the Powerbrake with more Marshalls than I can remember. I do always find the key is not to just crank the amp and then attenuate down and expect it to sound the same but quieter - I always set the rough level using the attenuator and then dial the amp in for that. Both of them sounded fine at the lowest setting used like that, with the amp not pushed too hard.

Maybe we want different sounds.

Sassafras

Some people expect too much from attenuators. You can't turn an amp down to whisper levels and expect it to sound any good. Speakers have to move around at least a bit.

Collings

I think the attenuators work great for knocking off a few db so you can crank it a little more in a gig situation. They don,t work well if you are trying to attenuate down to quiet home practice levels. They seem to loose all the dynamics and top end which is why this is comensated for on some attenuators like the thd.

I also find that cranking the amp up to max is not always the best tone so you need to dial that in with the attenuator.

FreddieVanHalen

sweepy said:

THD with Mesa Mk4 and Caliber 50, Marshall Powerbrake with a. Plexi, JCM 800 and 900, Iron Man as was built into my Sky King, sounded terrible considering the rave reviews and it does make you wonder if some people are deaf as posts 

Bit harsh :-)

I've used attenuators quite successfully although I'll grant you the sound isn't as pure as the full bore amp if you're trying to get a non-MV amp down to bedroom level...

Given that I live in a flat, the alternative was not to bother owning the bigger amps at all.

If you don't like 'em you don't like 'em though, I'm not here to convert you if you've tried it and hate it!

SunDevil

Must admit I thought the built-in Iron Man was pretty pants - blanket in front of speaker would have been just as good

I've tried other resistive types that are great to knock 3-9db off - might be enough in paired up with a good MV and some judicious EQing to put the top and bottom end back in?

Home playing volumes are probably best done with a line level and re-amp approach such as the Power Station or Two notes

You can get pretty close with any line level out into £150s worth of mono power amp and into the cab. Add a dash of active EQ and you are well on you're way..