Something I'm surprised Fender haven't done yet

rossyamaha

Listening to the new Hotrod amps, it's just occurred to me. I'm really surprised that of all the amp companies out there, why Fender haven't got hold of a Dumble and reverse engineered it and made their own version. I think if they did, released an inspired by and made it something like affordable they would clean up. Just a thought. 

ICBM

Not sure why they would care. It's a very niche amp which sells more on mystique than anything to do with the sound, and that would be difficult to translate to a mass-produced brand I think. Their own stuff is more recognisable and marketable, I think. Although I may be wrong, since EH appear to have done it with the Soul Food.

I have to say I've never played a Dumble - but I have played (and done a minor repair on, although it wasn't the builder's fault) one of the well-regarded copies, a Fuchs. It was very well-made and sounded OK. Like an amp... I don't really remember hearing anything special about it, it just sounded very even and a bit uninteresting.

Modulus_Amps

Firstly, Dumbles are not for everyone.....

They don't want to be a cloning company.....

There are lots of Dumble clones on the market already......

They already have the most popular amp by sales in the hotrod Deluxe... i.e. they are already "cleaning up"

ecc83

I would be interested in the 'legalities/permissions' on this? If (say) Fender produced a Dumble clone could they call it that and if they didn't, how are peeps to know?

Ok yes, they could 'allude' to it in the way that software rips call things "Tweedy" but then everyone then knows that a major amp maker is ripping off the Little Guy. Or they could pay for the  name/circuitry but that implies,

a) Dumble wants to sell (out, maybe he HATES Fender!)

b) Fender will sell enough to make it commercially viable. They say "there is nothing new under the sun" and that is ever true of git amp design but 'cloning' is a sore point and some firms just take the piss!

Dave.

Sassafras

I think Dumble is quite aggressive in pursuing anyone he perceives as cloning his designs.

Danny1969

I don't know 100 % but I believe it's very hard to patent a circuit, certainly in terms of component values ... even if you did patent it then I think the patent only lasts for 15 years or so and is non renewable 

Some amp builders pure epoxy resin over the board, don't know about Dumble but that's a better way to protect a circuit. Sure you can get around that but it's harder to do so

Fretwired

I'm more surprised they don't make a low watt, all valve affordable Tweed Champ (Blackstar HT1/HT5 money) rather than the £1K '57 Custom.

ICBM

Danny1969 said:

I don't know 100 % but I believe it's very hard to patent a circuit, certainly in terms of component values ... even if you did patent it then I think the patent only lasts for 15 years or so and is non renewable

You can't patent a circuit, although you can patent any innovative features of it. (Or non-innovative ones, if you're Randall Smith...)

You can copyright a PCB layout though, because it counts as an original artwork!

Danny1969 said:

Some amp builders pure epoxy resin over the board, don't know about Dumble but that's a better way to protect a circuit. Sure you can get around that but it's harder to do so

I think Dumble did. It's a waste of time - it becomes a challenge for people to reverse-engineer, and once done they then tend to put it in the public domain. It also makes repair work a pain in the arse.

I won't normally work on pedals or amps where it's done.

Fretwired said:

I'm more surprised they don't make a low watt, all valve affordable Tweed Champ (Blackstar HT1/HT5 money) rather than the £1K '57 Custom.

They do, or did, something quite like it - the Champion 600. Admittedly it was actually based on a later circuit with 'hidden' EQ - bizarrely it has a BF-type tone stack preset to buzzy, ratty and boxy - I really have no idea why they did that, since it must also have cost more to make than a proper 5F1 circuit.

rossyamaha

I agree that Dumbles won't appeal to everyone but they are far better known now thats to Mayer/ Bonamassa etc. I just think they could do a really good version and it would sell to the "toanz" crowd. I'd be interested thats for sure. 

Fretwired

ICBM said:

They do, or did, something quite like it - the Champion 600. Admittedly it was actually based on a later circuit with 'hidden' EQ - bizarrely it has a BF-type tone stack preset to buzzy, ratty and boxy - I really have no idea why they did that, since it must also have cost more to make than a proper 5F1 circuit.

I don't think they make it any more. It looked odd and didn't sound that great IMHO. The Champ had a distinct tone - probably a one trick pony, but it was a good trick and I'm sure Fender would sell loads to budding bedroom blues players .. :-)

EricTheWeary

Fretwired said:

ICBM said:

They do, or did, something quite like it - the Champion 600. Admittedly it was actually based on a later circuit with 'hidden' EQ - bizarrely it has a BF-type tone stack preset to buzzy, ratty and boxy - I really have no idea why they did that, since it must also have cost more to make than a proper 5F1 circuit.

I don't think they make it any more. It looked odd and didn't sound that great IMHO. The Champ had a distinct tone - probably a one trick pony, but it was a good trick and I'm sure Fender would sell loads to budding bedroom blues players .. :-)

The Champ and modded Champs popular as a harmonica amp ( there are boutique Champalikes built as harmonica amps) as well. Not necessarily a huge market but all adds up. 

ICBM

EricTheWeary said:

Fretwired said:

ICBM said:

They do, or did, something quite like it - the Champion 600. Admittedly it was actually based on a later circuit with 'hidden' EQ - bizarrely it has a BF-type tone stack preset to buzzy, ratty and boxy - I really have no idea why they did that, since it must also have cost more to make than a proper 5F1 circuit.

I don't think they make it any more. It looked odd and didn't sound that great IMHO. The Champ had a distinct tone - probably a one trick pony, but it was a good trick and I'm sure Fender would sell loads to budding bedroom blues players .. :-)

The Champ and modded Champs popular as a harmonica amp ( there are boutique Champalikes built as harmonica amps) as well. Not necessarily a huge market but all adds up. 

Yes. I could certainly see a market for a proper low-budget 5F1 reissue, with the correct simpler and better-sounding circuit, and an 8" speaker not the 6" in the Champion 600. They could economise by dropping the valve rectifier without hurting the sound too much I think.

bbill335

Fretwired said:

ICBM said:

They do, or did, something quite like it - the Champion 600. Admittedly it was actually based on a later circuit with 'hidden' EQ - bizarrely it has a BF-type tone stack preset to buzzy, ratty and boxy - I really have no idea why they did that, since it must also have cost more to make than a proper 5F1 circuit.

I don't think they make it any more. It looked odd and didn't sound that great IMHO. The Champ had a distinct tone - probably a one trick pony, but it was a good trick and I'm sure Fender would sell loads to budding bedroom blues players .. :-)

It looked a bit like the very first Champs from 1948


I don't know much about Dumbles but I remember reading that the first ones were modded BF/SF Fender heads that had been 'hot rodded'. In that sense, the 68 Customs are sort of following the same philosophy. 

Fretwired

bbill335 said:

Fretwired said:

ICBM said:

They do, or did, something quite like it - the Champion 600. Admittedly it was actually based on a later circuit with 'hidden' EQ - bizarrely it has a BF-type tone stack preset to buzzy, ratty and boxy - I really have no idea why they did that, since it must also have cost more to make than a proper 5F1 circuit.

I don't think they make it any more. It looked odd and didn't sound that great IMHO. The Champ had a distinct tone - probably a one trick pony, but it was a good trick and I'm sure Fender would sell loads to budding bedroom blues players .. :-)

It looked a bit like the very first Champs from 1948

I realise that but most people would have wanted a '57 Tweed Champ. And Fender launched a reissue Blackface Champ (originally made in the 1960s) which sounded OK.

ICBM

Fretwired said:

I realise that but most people would have wanted a '57 Tweed Champ.

I puzzled me why Fender did that as well. Particularly as the circuit they used almost seemed to deliberately justify using a PCB by being more complicated than it needed to be, and sounding worse!

Fretwired said:

And Fender launched a reissue Blackface Champ (originally made in the 1960s) which sounded OK. 

And the *really* strange thing is that the Champion 600 has a tone stack based on it... but it just doesn't sound right. Although the preset values chosen - treble low, bass almost off - are probably not how anyone would normally run a BF Champ.

Kebabkid

If anything, if I were Fender, I'd do a re-issue of a Rivera-era 80s Superchamp.

ICBM

Kebabkid said:

If anything, if I were Fender, I'd do a re-issue of a Rivera-era 80s Superchamp.

They can't reissue it accurately because of the 6C10 valve which is now unobtainable apart from small stocks of NOS ones.  It was also hopelessly uneconomical to make - Fender lost money on all that series, according to Paul Rivera - so it would have to be extremely expensive, probably.

I sometimes wish I hadn't sold mine - I've had four of them, although only as many as three at the same time .

hywelg

Quite a few if us on here own clones and the overriding thing is that they will all be different. HAD made different amps for different folks. Robben Ford's Dumble is a completely different amp to the one HAD  made for SRV. Even the ODS has different eras and characteristics. And of course HAD modded lots of other amps. 

@Ossyrocks probably knows most about them on here and had a huge photo archive of Dumbles. 

You have to remember Two Rock started out cloning Dumbles and their amps are still loosely based on them. Then there are many US cloners like Bludotone, Amplified Nation, Weaken, Glassworks, Fuchs etc etc. never mind Malaysian Ceriatone. Fender would struggle with that competition Tbh. 

crunchman

ICBM said:

They do, or did, something quite like it - the Champion 600. Admittedly it was actually based on a later circuit with 'hidden' EQ - bizarrely it has a BF-type tone stack preset to buzzy, ratty and boxy - I really have no idea why they did that, since it must also have cost more to make than a proper 5F1 circuit.

I've got a Champion 600 which I keep meaning to get around to selling.

If doesn't do the traditional Tweed champ thing, and even if the amp was voiced like that, the little 6" speaker wouldn't handle it.

What it does do is a nice clean sound at lower volume settings.  I really like it clean - probably the blackface style tone stack.

Kebabkid

ICBM said:

Kebabkid said:

If anything, if I were Fender, I'd do a re-issue of a Rivera-era 80s Superchamp.

They can't reissue it accurately because of the 6C10 valve which is now unobtainable apart from small stocks of NOS ones.  It was also hopelessly uneconomical to make - Fender lost money on all that series, according to Paul Rivera - so it would have to be extremely expensive, probably.

I sometimes wish I hadn't sold mine - I've had four of them, although only as many as three at the same time .

Cheers for that and I didn't know that. Weren't they point to point wired, as well?

I know a guy who still uses his for functions. Just that amp and he works the guitar volume knob and it's both loud enough for gigs and sounds fabulous.

ICBM

Kebabkid said:

Weren't they point to point wired, as well?

Yes - or accurately, eyelet board like all vintage Fenders. The Rivera series were the last Fender amps built like this until the Custom Shop.