The price point which is the dividing line between built down to a price and an item of quality ?

What's Hot
TelejesterTelejester Frets: 743
edited January 2018 in Amps
For a price I can take my pic of marshalls, fenders, peaveys , laneys, egnaters  etc which are obviously built down to a price point and not the last word in reliability, repairability, durability, gig worthiness, longevity and general road worthiness.

For the pricepoint in my head you get amps with:

valves bases circuit board mounted, pre and power
a high chance of cold solder joints
cheap capacitors
connectors which look like they were from a currys pc joining pcbs together
no name transformers
cheap ass valves
particle board construction
if a combo,  a good chance of vibration noise at certain resonant  frequencies
a general knock em together and shove em out the door ethos
pretty lacklustre or non existent customer care
appalling cheap speakers
a carry handle destined to fall to bits quickly

beyond a certain price threshold a lot of the horrors listed above start falling away and you get an amp somebody has taken a pride in building and which will give years of satisfaction, unlike a thrown together amp which will probably fall to bits quickly and wont be worth fixing.

At what price point do you think that threshold is at ?
0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
«1

Comments

  • timmysofttimmysoft Frets: 1962
    £68.50
    10reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • GadgetGadget Frets: 895
    Everything is built to a price point.
    I think, therefore.... I... ummmm........
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 3reaction image Wisdom
  • IMHO it depends heavily on a company ethos really, the one thing that all the manufacturers you list have in common is that they are unit shifting operations; build down to a price point and shift large numbers.

    However the Egnaters that you list are made by the same people (Boutique amp distribution, CA) that make Friedman and Morgan – so it’s about pricing the amp for consumption – not who is actually making the amp.

    Now take someone like Mesa/Boogie who, no matter the price point of the amp (granted in the UK they no longer make any low price amps, but that is more to do with Westside) strive to make an indestructible quality product – amps like the DC and Nomad series are testament to that – most are still going strong and are double digit years old.

    The fail factors you list are something that manufacturers of the top flight amps (Diezel, Soldano, Fryette, Mesa, Rivera etc.) would consider a complete no-no, but unit shifters with a much more consumer vision don’t really care about, in effect they produce amps as white goods, if it breaks get another they are cheap.

    Ultimately it comes down to what you are a consumer will accept and can afford - I know what one I prefer!

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • CollingsCollings Frets: 411
    edited January 2018
    The brands you mention are simply designing and building amps that come in at a price their market/potential buyer will bear and many of them stand up pretty well it terms of reliability and have been massively popular with their target market (e.g Fender Hot Rods) .  

    It would be very easy for Peavey as an example to build an amp that addresses all of the items in your list of supposed shortcomings but they would be unlikely to sell many at the price they would need to be in their area of the market. 

    Everything is designed and built to a price point applicable to the market
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357
    It's not so much price that sets the reliability factor but common sense and the ability to learn from previous mistakes. There's plenty of expensive stuff with good quality components that go wrong. 
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • Old Peavey bandits were affordable and bullet proof. 

    Modern jet city amps are very well built and affordable. 

    Brand ethos has more to do with it than cost. 
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 2reaction image Wisdom
  • SassafrasSassafras Frets: 30273
    42
    1reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 11415

    I'm not sure there is one cut off.

    Using amps I've got experience of, a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe is a much better built amp than a Peavey Classic 30.  Given how the Classic 30 churns through EL84s the HRD will be a lot cheaper to run long term as well.  Having said that, my Lazy J is a step up again.

    The HRD is built to a price, but it doesn't have the horrible compromises that the C30 has.  Lumping everything in together that isn't at the very high end of the market is over-simplistic.

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357
    An HRD is a cheap amp to run long term, it's well proven on the twice a week covers band circuit

    For reliability and cheapness I have to mention Blackstars little HT5 .... over the last 5 years I have done hundreds of gigs on one and it's been faultless despite the fact I'm running it close to the max available power. Mines always lived in the van uncased as well so it's not like I took extra special care of it 
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71963
    It also depends hugely on where it’s made. A Chinese-made Jet City costs about a third of an equivalent UK-made Marshall but is better built.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • ESBlondeESBlonde Frets: 3576
    Another consideration of price is the road cases. If you buy a cheap combo and toss it in the boot of your car with the dust cover on it week after week when you are tired, it will take a lot more abuse than if you buy a top flight amplifier and case it in a proper road case (which might cost nearly as much as the cheap amp). That tough padded case is wheeled about by professional roadies who take care of it. yes may be bounced about in a lorry, but overall that expensive amp is better handled/protected. Other expensive amps might sit in the music rooms of executives homes and never get any abuse. This among other things might explain why 'pro' level gear is deemed more reliable not withstanding design and manufacturing.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • ecc83ecc83 Frets: 1592
    Danny1969 said:
    It's not so much price that sets the reliability factor but common sense and the ability to learn from previous mistakes. There's plenty of expensive stuff with good quality components that go wrong. 


    +1 This USED to be the case in the R&TV trade. Companies were very interested in service dept feedback so that they could nip 'stock faults' in the bud and give advice to dealers.

    Just a few minutes ago I read ICBM commenting on a Fender that had a burned out cathode resistor? It does not take an electronics genius to fit a resistor with more capacity than the HT fuse! Maybe the amp HAS no fuse in which case I would consider that penny pinching gone mad. Bit odd that dealer don't complain more because for THAT fault the valve could easily have failed inside the warranty period and that is the profit on that sale gone.

    We desperately need far more robust legislation about serviceability, company responsibility and long term service support.

    Dave.

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 11415
    With a lot of electronics, they don't want them to last long term though.  They are quite happy if something breaks a day after the warranty period expires.  That way they get to sell you a new one.  A few years ago I had a TV that died within a month of the warranty expiring.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71963
    ecc83 said:

    Just a few minutes ago I read ICBM commenting on a Fender that had a burned out cathode resistor? It does not take an electronics genius to fit a resistor with more capacity than the HT fuse! Maybe the amp HAS no fuse in which case I would consider that penny pinching gone mad.

    No HT fuse.

    Although one of them was the cathode resistor which shouldn't really have failed, it's actually quite hard to protect a screen supply resistor with a fuse - because they're a fairly large value the power dissipation goes off the clock with even a fairly small excess current. eg a 1K resistor will dissipate 62W with only 250mA going through it, which it easily will if a valve shorts to the screen - and that's less than the typical HT fuse value.

    Of course this is one reason why a proper choke is best!

    crunchman said:
    With a lot of electronics, they don't want them to last long term though.  They are quite happy if something breaks a day after the warranty period expires.  That way they get to sell you a new one.  A few years ago I had a TV that died within a month of the warranty expiring.
    In my family we've had *three* Sony products which died not long after the warranty expired. A 3-year one in one case, to be fair - but even so I don't think I'll buy another Sony product.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • ecc83ecc83 Frets: 1592
    ICBM said:
    ecc83 said:

    Just a few minutes ago I read ICBM commenting on a Fender that had a burned out cathode resistor? It does not take an electronics genius to fit a resistor with more capacity than the HT fuse! Maybe the amp HAS no fuse in which case I would consider that penny pinching gone mad.

    No HT fuse.

    Although one of them was the cathode resistor which shouldn't really have failed, it's actually quite hard to protect a screen supply resistor with a fuse - because they're a fairly large value the power dissipation goes off the clock with even a fairly small excess current. eg a 1K resistor will dissipate 62W with only 250mA going through it, which it easily will if a valve shorts to the screen - and that's less than the typical HT fuse value.

    Of course this is one reason why a proper choke is best!

    crunchman said:
    With a lot of electronics, they don't want them to last long term though.  They are quite happy if something breaks a day after the warranty period expires.  That way they get to sell you a new one.  A few years ago I had a TV that died within a month of the warranty expiring.
    In my family we've had *three* Sony products which died not long after the warranty expired. A 3-year one in one case, to be fair - but even so I don't think I'll buy another Sony product.


    Do you know IC I never had a 2W 1k G2 resistor burn out in any Artisan? Even when some twerps ran an A100 OC and destroyed the EL34s and the fuse popped! Not sure I understand about the choke? The 3 Artisans had one but still had G2 Rs.

    Even when we had a shit batch of KT88s suffering Purple Death (took out ALL the fuses!) the G2 Rs remained intact. On one occasion one of the grid stoppers, 10k was cooked but was actually still in value. Good stuff MF resistors!

    Dave.

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71963
    ecc83 said:

    Do you know IC I never had a 2W 1k G2 resistor burn out in any Artisan? Even when some twerps ran an A100 OC and destroyed the EL34s and the fuse popped! Not sure I understand about the choke? The 3 Artisans had one but still had G2 Rs.

    Even when we had a shit batch of KT88s suffering Purple Death (took out ALL the fuses!) the G2 Rs remained intact. On one occasion one of the grid stoppers, 10k was cooked but was actually still in value. Good stuff MF resistors!

    It's a fairly common failure in amps with a resistor instead of a choke to the second node. Admittedly a lot of these don't have HT fuses, but I've seen a few even in amps with them. Mostly carbon resistors admittedly - a decent big MF or best of all a wirewound *should* hold up until the fuse goes. Those old grey-green vitrified ceramic wirewounds can get red hot and still work afterwards!

    That said, chokes aren't totally unknown to burn out under that sort of abuse either.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357
    edited January 2018
    crunchman said:
    With a lot of electronics, they don't want them to last long term though.  They are quite happy if something breaks a day after the warranty period expires.  That way they get to sell you a new one.  A few years ago I had a TV that died within a month of the warranty expiring.
    I honestly don't think that is the case, it's not so much they want it to fail it's more a fact they wanted to build it cheaper so therefore used cheaper capacitors in the SMPS section or a cheaper LCD that failed in the address bus joints. 
     I think they are unlikely  to sell you a 2nd one if the first one only lasted 13 months or so. Brand loyalty is very important and the reason Apple is worth more than any other company. 
    I think emerging tech drives the TV sales and brand loyalty leads to sales ... plus little things like cutting off Youtube support for older sets 

    That said, as I've mentioned in a loads of what laptop threads the name on the case doesn't mean that's who made it. In the nineties I did design work for Goodmans who had a piece of kit made by an unknown Chinese OEM which eventually hit the stores under the Alba brand. (Yes it was awful and I apologise but the finished product with my mods was better than the first prototype they showed me

    www.2020studios.co.uk 
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • i do wonder if its a false perception that stuff doesnt last as long these days. I think that tech stuff is relatively cheaper these days that when it does go wrong outside warrenties we tend to just bin it where as in the old days we'd make the effort and find someone to repair it.?
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71963
    i do wonder if its a false perception that stuff doesnt last as long these days. I think that tech stuff is relatively cheaper these days that when it does go wrong outside warrenties we tend to just bin it where as in the old days we'd make the effort and find someone to repair it.?
    I think it's a bit of a 'perfect storm' - things are made cheaper, by being designed for mass-production by machines. This in turn usually makes it harder and more expensive to repair, especially at component level - if repairable at all, it's often by changing relatively expensive sub-assemblies. Also, it tends to get made in the far east where what labour is involved is cheaper, and has to be repaired in the west where labour is much more expensive. The rate of technological change is probably greater in many fields too, so there's less incentive to repair rather than replace even if you take the economics out of it.

    And we're all getting old so things just don't last as long as they did, even if they actually do ;). Ten years is a lot less time now than it was when we were 20 :).

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • normula1normula1 Frets: 640
    I recently had a 4 year old dishwasher scrapped of under extended warranty because the sub assembly PCB was no longer available. The fault was actually with a £3 relay that I fitted so we had a working machine ubtil the replacement arrived. I only ever take extended warranties on machines with water as I we've now had four machined replaced with new ones after a good number of years for a next to nothing.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
Sign In or Register to comment.