Oh dear, I think I want to collect vinyl....

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  • vizviz Frets: 4936
    edited January 29
    RobDavies said:
    I’d say no.  

    I’ve spent 500 quid on a Rega turntable and cartridge and for me, it doesn’t touch a CD player costing half that (using the same amp, speakers and cables). 

    Maybe I need to spend more? I won’t be doing so, but ultimately I’m disappointed. 
    It’s a difficult comparison. At 500 quid you won’t get something that “matches” CD. In fact you will never match CD. The sounds of the two formats diverge and go down different paths. At £500 that divergence will already be noticeable, the records will sound warmer and smoother and the CDs will sound crisper and brighter and more precise. But the record will probably still sound a bit boxy even with a planar 3. It’s not until 2-3k that the record player will really show what the record is capable of, which is incredible responsiveness, depth and range, realism, separation and unclutteredness (is that a word)

    for 500-700 quid I’d get a 3-400 quid rega P3 or equivalent, a 200 quid denon mc cartridge - I think they’re called 102R or something, an mc phono stage from pro-jekt or cambridge or similar, and use the amp and speakers you have. Compare that to a 500 quid CD player - that’ll fare quite well. It won’t be perfect and the CD player will still outperform in some criteria, but some of the above inherent benefits of vinyl will shine through enough and you will at least enjoy the listen. 

    Edit - oh, and some Art du Son solution and a trackmate windy-roundy-thing. 
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  • NeillNeill Frets: 373
    Clashman said:
    Don't know exatly how many LP's and singles I have but it's a lot.I have now given up hunting for
    rarities in Charity shops, your best chance of a bargain is Auctions now.The internet killed
    Charity shop bargains i'm afraid.Five years hunting I ended up with about 10  valuable
    records and must have looked through thousands upon thousands.
    So much of the appeal of vinyl was the fun of acquiring records, and finding gems from the past, but the thrill of the chase has gone.  

    Years ago well before the Internet, even mobile phones, I was reading a magazine featuring an interview with John Renbourn.  He mentioned that one of his great regrets was he had lost his one and only copy of "Solomon's Seal", which was the only Pentangle album missing from his collection.  The album had been discontinued long ago, and John mentioned he lived in hope of finding a copy secondhand.  I had a copy of the album, so I contacted one of the specialist record stores I knew quite well and they did have John's address so were able to forward a letter for me.

    A few days later a very excited John Renbourn rang. I explained how I had read the interview and clearly owning the album would mean a lot more to him than me, and I would be happy to part with it.

    I would have given it away but John insisted on paying what in retrospect was quite a lot of money at the time.  And he sent me a lovely hand written thank you letter which I still have.

    The point is, none of this would happen in the digital/Internet era.  I don't miss vinyl so much as the excitement, anticipation and and wonder of the age.  Much of the appeal of vinyl lies it's context, and the context is a world that no longer exists.  It's like owning a classic car from the 1960's and driving in modern day traffic.  
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  • Musicman20Musicman20 Frets: 533

    Buying vinyl has been a big part of why I love buying music again. I've had a nice turntable and quality stereo for years, but I've only had room to have it unpacked and setup for the past 2 years.

    Now, I love the buzz of getting a limted vinyl. But I also use my iMac and wireless speakers for music as well. Best of both worlds, plus there is something about owning music physically which hits a peak with vinyl.


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  • JAYJOJAYJO Frets: 809
    If you want to expand your music hobby then maybe collect sheet music or music books. Originals etc must be some decent art work included in some of them. 
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  • darthed1981darthed1981 Frets: 2113
    RobDavies said:
    I’d say no.  

    I’ve spent 500 quid on a Rega turntable and cartridge and for me, it doesn’t touch a CD player costing half that (using the same amp, speakers and cables). 

    Maybe I need to spend more? I won’t be doing so, but ultimately I’m disappointed. 
    You sure your cartridge is aligned and the needle pressure set right, turntable level etc?

    Vinyl doesn't nicely set itself up like CD does, if you want excellent sound out of the blocks and ease of use, I wouldn't even bother with CD these days necessarily, just get streaming...
    Warning: this post may contain overtly affectionate references to Mary Spender
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  • Phil_aka_PipPhil_aka_Pip Frets: 8974
     I wouldn't even bother with CD these days necessarily, just get streaming...
    Which is all right until BT loses your internet connection, and so long as there is someone at the far end who has what you want to listen to and is willing to let you have it. Suppose you wanted to listen to something the Govermnent thinks you shouldn't? Far better to own it on a physical medium you paid cash for ...
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • RobDaviesRobDavies Frets: 1788
    RobDavies said:
    I’d say no.  

    I’ve spent 500 quid on a Rega turntable and cartridge and for me, it doesn’t touch a CD player costing half that (using the same amp, speakers and cables). 

    Maybe I need to spend more? I won’t be doing so, but ultimately I’m disappointed. 
    Blimey that sounds odd..



    my tastings have showed that for me Vinyl is my fave format, used Arcam, NAD and Marantz KI signature CD players and nope, always too ‘ting ting ting’ on the cymbals, less separation of instruments and a narrow(er) soundstage.. so much so that I haven’t had CD now for 2 odd years, Vinyl or streaming..

    so I doubt you need to spend more(or much more at worse), you just more likely prefer the sound of seedee 
    See, that's just it....  I find the exact opposite - the soundstage on CD is much wider than on vinyl.

    Maybe it needs setting up?  But I invested in scales to get the cartridge weight right, and have used the Rega set up tool, so it should be ok....  Cartridge is a Rega Elys 2, which I bought specifically as the reviews said it had a particularly wide soundstage.
    Amp is a Marantz PM6005 into AE Aegis 3 speakers.
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  • darthed1981darthed1981 Frets: 2113
     I wouldn't even bother with CD these days necessarily, just get streaming...
    Which is all right until BT loses your internet connection, and so long as there is someone at the far end who has what you want to listen to and is willing to let you have it. Suppose you wanted to listen to something the Govermnent thinks you shouldn't? Far better to own it on a physical medium you paid cash for ...
    The govermnent?  Those bastards! ;)

    I collect vinyl for my own use, and I keep MP3s of my old CD collection, so, yes I agree with you.

    My point wasn't "f**k vinyl, do streaming", as I explained up-thread, I love both.

    My point is, if you want easy and convenient, the product you want is probably streaming, not Vinyl, where the appeal is more the "experience".  Yes, the overall sound is arguably better than CD in some ways, mostly based on Vinyl's inherent flaws, on any decent deck (I don't subscribe to the elitist idea that you need to spend thousands, you don't) , but that wasn't the appeal for me.

    Chasing the "perfect" sound reproduction is in some ways like chasing the perfect guitar tone, you can spend any amount of money you care to name, but maybe a good decent setup is best for most of us?
    Warning: this post may contain overtly affectionate references to Mary Spender
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  • Phil_aka_PipPhil_aka_Pip Frets: 8974
    @darthed1981    No I wasn't arguing the sonic benefits of vinyl or CD, just that if you don't own the physical storage medium you are at the mercy of someone else for access to it. For all I know if you've got enough bandwidth you could stream FLAC and get it at higher quality than CD, but it's no good if your internet connection goes down.
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • darthed1981darthed1981 Frets: 2113
    @darthed1981    No I wasn't arguing the sonic benefits of vinyl or CD, just that if you don't own the physical storage medium you are at the mercy of someone else for access to it. For all I know if you've got enough bandwidth you could stream FLAC and get it at higher quality than CD, but it's no good if your internet connection goes down.
    This is true :)

    Mitigating that is the fact you can download your library from Spotify to your local PC or phone etc while you maintain a subscription, you need to go online every 30 days.

    Further to your point however is that if that is all your music always, when you are old and grey you probably will not want to listen to new music as much as old, and maintaining a 10 or 20 quid a month subscription just to do that will probably grate on you.

    Maintaining some kind of local library is wise :)
    Warning: this post may contain overtly affectionate references to Mary Spender
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  • JAYJOJAYJO Frets: 809
    edited January 29
    @darthed1981    No I wasn't arguing the sonic benefits of vinyl or CD, just that if you don't own the physical storage medium you are at the mercy of someone else for access to it. For all I know if you've got enough bandwidth you could stream FLAC and get it at higher quality than CD, but it's no good if your internet connection goes down.
    My files playing now without internet connection though im not streaming ive downloaded. So i will just piss off then sorry.
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  • BRISTOL86BRISTOL86 Frets: 1435
    I’ve not physically owned any music now
    - other than about 4 vinyls which have never been played - for about 5 years and I’ve never not been able to play it.

    Streaming is just such a convenient solution. I haven't seen any stats but I’m guessing in the last few years - aside from the resurgence of vinyl - physical music sales have gone through the floor ?
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  • darthed1981darthed1981 Frets: 2113
    BRISTOL86 said:
    I’ve not physically owned any music now
    - other than about 4 vinyls which have never been played - for about 5 years and I’ve never not been able to play it.

    Streaming is just such a convenient solution. I haven't seen any stats but I’m guessing in the last few years - aside from the resurgence of vinyl - physical music sales have gone through the floor ?
    Yes, basically.

    Vinyl is also re-surging from "bugger all", so does not compare in sales to the "sales" figures of streaming.

    This is arguably why someone like Tay Tay makes a big fuss about avoiding streaming, so everyone buys her CDs (and Vinyl) when she is making her big fuss, then she gets another massive boost when she does launch onto streaming.

    It's all business really, the amazing thing about Vinyl is it has got people paying £20+ for albums again, which is delicious for the music industry, especially since so much of it is catalogue.
    Warning: this post may contain overtly affectionate references to Mary Spender
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  • boogiemanboogieman Frets: 5102
    I’m thinking of heading in the other direction and putting all my vinyl into digital files and then offloading it while the prices are good. I like the look of album sleeves and how tactile they are, but I can’t remember the last time I played my vinyl. 
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  • duotoneduotone Frets: 266
    viz said:
    RobDavies said:
    I’d say no.  

    I’ve spent 500 quid on a Rega turntable and cartridge and for me, it doesn’t touch a CD player costing half that (using the same amp, speakers and cables). 

    Maybe I need to spend more? I won’t be doing so, but ultimately I’m disappointed. 
    It’s a difficult comparison. At 500 quid you won’t get something that “matches” CD. In fact you will never match CD. The sounds of the two formats diverge and go down different paths. At £500 that divergence will already be noticeable, the records will sound warmer and smoother and the CDs will sound crisper and brighter and more precise. But the record will probably still sound a bit boxy even with a planar 3. It’s not until 2-3k that the record player will really show what the record is capable of, which is incredible responsiveness, depth and range, realism, separation and unclutteredness (is that a word)

    for 500-700 quid I’d get a 3-400 quid rega P3 or equivalent, a 200 quid denon mc cartridge - I think they’re called 102R or something, an mc phono stage from pro-jekt or cambridge or similar, and use the amp and speakers you have. Compare that to a 500 quid CD player - that’ll fare quite well. It won’t be perfect and the CD player will still outperform in some criteria, but some of the above inherent benefits of vinyl will shine through enough and you will at least enjoy the listen. 

    Edit - oh, and some Art du Son solution and a trackmate windy-roundy-thing. 
    Damn! Think that’s enough to put most people off.  Out of interest what models are you referring to? Rega/Clearaudio?
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  • Si_Si_ Frets: 380
    I'm a vinyl person.. Like most people I've got GBs of MP3s, but there is just something better about hearing the raw vinyl recordings. Generally the dynamics are so much better than the MP3 equivalent. A properly setup record player is (IMHO) much warmer and cleaner sounding than any digital source. 

    I disagree about the 2-3k price range being where it's at, that's not true, with a well setup P3 you'll get 99% of the same experience. 

    Also, don't discount vintage 70-80s players, most of them are fantastic value for money. 

    I'm currently using a Thorens TD160 (Slightly upgraded) playing through a Technics SU-7300 Amp and it sounds great.
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  • vizviz Frets: 4936
    edited January 30
    duotone said:
    viz said:
    RobDavies said:
    I’d say no.  

    I’ve spent 500 quid on a Rega turntable and cartridge and for me, it doesn’t touch a CD player costing half that (using the same amp, speakers and cables). 

    Maybe I need to spend more? I won’t be doing so, but ultimately I’m disappointed. 
    It’s a difficult comparison. At 500 quid you won’t get something that “matches” CD. In fact you will never match CD. The sounds of the two formats diverge and go down different paths. At £500 that divergence will already be noticeable, the records will sound warmer and smoother and the CDs will sound crisper and brighter and more precise. But the record will probably still sound a bit boxy even with a planar 3. It’s not until 2-3k that the record player will really show what the record is capable of, which is incredible responsiveness, depth and range, realism, separation and unclutteredness (is that a word)

    for 500-700 quid I’d get a 3-400 quid rega P3 or equivalent, a 200 quid denon mc cartridge - I think they’re called 102R or something, an mc phono stage from pro-jekt or cambridge or similar, and use the amp and speakers you have. Compare that to a 500 quid CD player - that’ll fare quite well. It won’t be perfect and the CD player will still outperform in some criteria, but some of the above inherent benefits of vinyl will shine through enough and you will at least enjoy the listen. 

    Edit - oh, and some Art du Son solution and a trackmate windy-roundy-thing. 
    Damn! Think that’s enough to put most people off.  Out of interest what models are you referring to? Rega/Clearaudio?
    For 500-700 I’d get these:
    http://www.emporiumhifi.com/head-office-norfolk-suffolk/rega-planar-3-turntable-with-rb300-arm/

    http://www.emporiumhifi.com/pre-owned/hart-audio-lindley-hood-mm-mc-phonostage-with-psu/

    https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/BRAND-NEW-DENON-DL-103R-EQUAL-L-R-CHANNEL-MOVING-COIL-MC-PHONO-CARTRIDGE/111615584616?epid=1034756602&hash=item19fccea968:g:0KcAAOxyEqNTmH55

    See if Emporium will do a deal on the deck and preamp (the deck used to be mine - it’s amazing), and you’re off. Ok that’s 800 not 500 but it’s very good. 


    For 3k or slightly more, I’d go for a bottom-of-the-range Kuzma deck, with Kuzma’s own tonearm or a ‘cheap’ SME arm or similar, and a Koetsu black cartridge, plus a £500 MC preamp. That’d take you from 70% to 90% sound quality. Or you could blow 10k with the top of the range versions of the above - a Kuzma reference, an SME V and a Koetsu Onyx or something. That’d take you to 95%. 99% costs 40k ...
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  • BRISTOL86BRISTOL86 Frets: 1435
    Just found out that IKEA have stopped selling the frames I’ve used for my 3 records on the wall (it was called GLADSAX). 

    They were only about £5 each and absolutely perfect for...well, framing a record !

    They now sell for upwards of £25 a piece on eBay(!) how utterly ridiculous. 

    So now if I ever want more than 3 on the wall I have to find a new range of frames. Anyone else frame vinyl on the wall that can recommend a suitable frame?
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  • beed84beed84 Frets: 1196
    I often find myself in an "oh dear" situation with vinyl. Although fun and rewarding, it's an expensive hobby collecting records, most of which I already have on CD.

    Personally, I've not been able to listen to my LPs for over a year due to living arrangements, and not once have I pined to do so. Every now and then I flirt with the idea of selling them, but I have the feeling I'd regret if I did. At the moment they're just sat on a shelf doing nothing.

    They're a nice thing to have, but I'm yet to be convinced that they're the best format in terms of sound quality. It might be controversial to some, but I'm quite partial to digital offerings. To my ear it sounds good. A lot cheaper too.
    "Life is full of disappointments. And by disappointments I mean people" -- Kambri Crews
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  • darthed1981darthed1981 Frets: 2113
    beed84 said:
    They're a nice thing to have, but I'm yet to be convinced that they're the best format in terms of sound quality. It might be controversial to some, but I'm quite partial to digital offerings. To my ear it sounds good. A lot cheaper too.
    Even as a Vinyl fan, I'd never argue Vinyl is better than CD, it isn't, it's different.  It is why I find the concept you need to spend thousands and thousands a bit daft, you can get 99% of the way there for 10k...  that i more than a lot of people spend on a car, we are talking (mostly) about popular music here, it is supposed to be for everyone.

    Vinyl gives you big packages made out of nice soft coated board, with nice shiny platters that you have to handle with care and an amount of love or you mess them up.  This makes your music physically feel more valuable, so it is more in tune with what your emotional attachment to that music is like.

    The recent resurgence of Vinyl is the above combined with a certain rejection of the totally physical and ownership free world of digital streaming, which alongside you tube is taking over music consumption for kids.

    CD, apart from the horror of the jewel case, remains technically damn near perfect for storage and reproduction of sounds we can actually hear, though some hi-fi enthusiasts maintain there are "harmonics" caused by sound outside our hearing range bouncing around and becoming modulated to become audible.  This to me is like the following: -

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGf0AHky0Os

    Also you are unlikely to miss them even if there is truth in it.... but hi-res audio is for you if you believe in it all... unless you feel the way it is encoded actually makes it worse, which you can find a convincing case for online.

    Streaming quality is extremely good as well, very few, although some, can detect the difference between the 320kbps OGG files used by Spotify, for example, and CD.  MP3 at high bitrates is just fine, and in fact above 192kbps will be transparent for most people in most environments.  Apple's AAC at anything over 128kbps is also very good...
    Warning: this post may contain overtly affectionate references to Mary Spender
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