Jordan Peterson on C4

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quarkyquarky Frets: 2015
edited January 29 in Politics Economics
Not sure if anyone else has seen this:



I hadn't heard of him before, but actually it sounds like he talks some sense here. Think I will have to check out his books.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10474
    I think he's hilarious. And nuts. Whereas the like of Dawkins, Sam Harris, Hitchens, all speak or spoke with a certain attachment to the floor, JDP when he's unleashed is like a Brasseye sketch for me. 



    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2015
    This guy is my new hero. 

    That video about god was "interesting", but some of his analysis, and his ideas are incredible.

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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10474
     A video like the one above is really not much different from the sort of stuff Tony Robbins has made a fortune dishing out (and one look at the ticket categories for his UK gig this April tells you he's not short of a buck or twelve). With JDP, it's up to the next level. I can't listen to him talking about 'the mode of authentic being' and it sounds like Jimmy Swaggert armed with some philosophical texts. 

    What's interesting about JDP for me isn't what he says but what his success says about large amounts of the male gender right now.There's a lot of guys out there feeling stuck in a rut, feeling powerless, feeling fucked from stuff that happened in their younger years. Guys who for whatever reason don't have or feel they have a voice. Guys who are cowed in their own lives. 

    It makes perfect sense why individuals now command so many followers. Trump to Corbyn to JDP. 
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2015
    Interesting view. I am not sure what wows me about his stuff. I don't know any Robbins stuff, but I do find Peterson similar to other stuff I have read recently, with elements from Psycho-Cybernetics, Emotional Intelligence, and The Seven Habits, etc. I think it is because he *isn't* actually inventing anything here, but is reinforcing a lot of good stuff in a small package.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10474
    Within that self-help improvement field, I don't think he says anything radical. How it feels to me is that a lot of his converts then go "He's right about this. He's a professor and clever and uses long words. I think he's right about all the other stuff". Feminism, Marxism, all the usual targets. Then he just sounds like another white religious dude harping on about how society's ills are all the faults of der socialists. 

    Go through some of his debates with Sam Harris. There's a certain lack of direct speak from JDP when it comes to religion and truth. 

    Some of the libertarian thoughts on JDP are most amusing. Have a gander at this for a start.

    https://beinglibertarian.com/jordan-peterson-bit-dumbass/


    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2015
    I certainly share some of his views on Marxism and the left, and have been fairly vocal about the harm that the left has caused before on here in the past :) His views on feminism are interesting too. It is really difficult to say what is right and what is fair about a pay-gap (or absence of), or even indeed how it is measured, but he is correct (I think) in that it is "fairness of opportunity" which is desirable/essential. And I think that is a better target because it should be easier to measure and achieve. 

    But I strongly disagree with him over religion from what I saw. He believes in at least some historical evidence for Jesus, which is a little crazy to start with, and some greater "sprit" or "soul" which just sounds like nonsense. There is no evidence for any of that clap-trap, but I guess he was raised in a very religious family. 

    That's OK though. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. Even with the self-improvement stuff, there are some that don't quite fit for me, but I am looking forward to reading his book! Actually at the same time, I bought Flow too, for 99p, which is one I have after for a while as well!

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  • JohnPerryJohnPerry Frets: 1258
    I'm not religious at all but there is historical evidence for Jesus's existence in Roman and Jewish literature. Not crazy to say so.

    Who he was and what he did is another matter. But he certainly existed. 


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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2015
    JohnPerry said:
    I'm not religious at all but there is historical evidence for Jesus's existence in Roman and Jewish literature. Not crazy to say so.

    Who he was and what he did is another matter. But he certainly existed. 


    That is a whole other topic, but there is very little, if any, contemporary evidence that he did, and some serious things which should make people think otherwise. Jesus of Nazareth, but Nazareth wasn't around until well after Jesus supposedly existed, etc. I guess I would expect more than that. But then there are so many problems with applying any basic logic to the bible that it just isn't worth trying. Even the writings of Paul, one of the greatest influences in the New Testament were written by someone who never met Jesus. So "certainly" existed? I don't buy that. As I said though, a whole other topic!
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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2015
    Another great one!


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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10474
    edited February 8
    It sounds fabulously intelligent but the actual basis... it's empty. I cheated and found the text of the video online. The weaving in of the religious elements simply muddies things further. 

    These utopian schemes JP speaks of... what were these exactly? This country certainly wasn't utopian. If he's trying to claim that socialism brought about the two world wars, then for Britain it's reasonable to say that post-war Britain really did have a socialist kick with the introduction of the NHS and the welfare state along with the breaching of a very rigid class system and gender system. Thinking of other countries, I don't think there was utopia in post-colonial India or a racially charged America or during the time of conscription. Without named examples, I can't agree with him.  

    His words on nationalist identity are interesting. As cribbed from a robot text site (seriously): 

    "...and it seems to me perhaps that’s what’s happened in in places like the EEC is that the distance between the typical citizen and the bureaucracy that runs the entire structure has got so great that it’s an element of destabilization in and of itself and so people revert back to say nationalistic identities because it’s something that they can relate to it there’s a history there and a shared identity a genuine identity an identity of language and tradition it’s not an artificial imposition from the top"

    A genuine identity? For a man who can argue with Sam Harris about the notion of truth and can't give a straight answer about what truth is because he doesn't believe in this 'absolute' truth, it comes over as intellectually dishonest to then come up with a notion of a genuine identity. Nick Griffin's "genuine identity" doesn't match my "genuine identity". An identity of tradition will differ depending on your circumstances. Prince Harry's identity of tradition is going to be a damn sight different to mine. I simply don't believe in a national identity. It's a cheap piece of generalization that depersonalizes the individual and their experiences. 
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2015
    The identity thing is bang on I think, which is why I disagree with multiculturalism too. We all need to feel we belong, and belonging to a nation is (or was) actually a fairly good "catch-all" for that. Sure we might be male/female, rich/poor, black/white, but if we all feel British, English, American, Australian, French, or whatever, if nothing else, you have that in common. A know a lot of people like to knock that these days, but it is born out in ex-pat communities too, whether it is Brits in Spain (shudder), Poles here, or whatever. Having that common cultural identity, not racial, not gender, but a perceived culture, is a great safety net. By destroying that, you get communities, even in the same country or county, who really struggle to relate to each other. We see it all over, and even Government whitepapers have shown that the problem is getting worse, not better. Just saying "we are all human" isn't enough, you might as well say "we all exist". It is nonsense. 

    So that doesn't mean that every facet of our identity is the same, of course it isn't, identity is an incredibly complex thing (I have a twin brother, but even so, we have hugely different identities), but it is like a spectral analysis. We should all feel something in common with the greater community though, and that is what is being destroyed, and in some opinions multiculturalism and other leftist policies, although done with the best intentions contribute to that.

    In terms of Utopia, I don't think he is claiming that it ever existed, but that even the pursuit of it is counter-productive, counter-intuitive, and again, contributing to many modern issues.

    I agree about the religious muddying of the waters though!




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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10474
    edited February 9
    Communities that stick together overseas like ex pat communities are usually content to settle for what they know rather than making strides to ingratiate themselves further with the indigenous communities. It's what I found as an expat to North America, a steadfast reluctance to really embrace a new life elsewhere. Stick to the English theme pubs, watch yer Premiership football... blah. Through my then wife and mother in law, both asylum seekers from Uruguay, I saw what happens when 'foreigners' really do integrate. Meeting members of other communities and seeing how they fitted into Canadian society demonstrated how the English folk I met out there didn't. 

    I agree that there is a large amount of community breakdown. Different sectors don't know about the other, a fact which seems perverse in these days of widespread communication, but you'll see online that people stick with what they know from the forums they visit to the social media they consume to what grabs them on a Facebook news feed. A lot of traditional avenues that facilitated integration such as team sports and public houses don't have the same number of participants, and we now have a situation where people live out a lot of their life online and keep within the same social boundaries. 

    So us all feeling British: to me, that's a empty term because it's put up there with no clear definition of what being British actually is. "British values" has been thrown about the political arena for years and I'm still none the wiser as to what it actually means. It's a nod to some utopian value system that didn't actually exist. You mention a 'perceived culture': again, this term could mean anything. 

    "Having that common cultural identity, not racial, not gender, but a perceived culture, is a great safety net. By destroying that, you get communities, even in the same country or county, who really struggle to relate to each other. We see it all over, and even Government whitepapers have shown that the problem is getting worse, not better. Just saying "we are all human" isn't enough, you might as well say "we all exist". It is nonsense."

    People who have fears and who feel weak tend to seek a common link to others. An awful lot of radical politics on both sides have members who adopt these ideologies because it means they can then fit into somewhere. So yes, it is a safety net but it's also the easier option. The harder option is one where you feel confident in your own identity without having to join this team or wave this flag or sing the school song very loudly. Now I freely admit that I'm one quirky motherfucker. I've never really felt the need to adopt some form of common cultural identity. I'm very happy in my own company, I don't need people in the way many people need them. When I moved to Canada and stayed there for three years, I didn't feel any loss of identity because my identity is about what's between my ears. It's not about waving a flag or singing an anthem or adopting the bulldog spirit. 

    In life, we are all individuals. Even within a family unit, we are essentially individuals who have to learn how to get on with others. Sometimes it doesn't work. Quarks, apologies if this feels a bit too personal but I think it's a good example of what I'm getting at. I remember you posting a couple of Decembers ago about your family life and how your wife made things very difficult with regard to seeing parents and suchlike. Now you've got the cultural identity of "family" running from your kids up to you and your wife and then to your parents, and yet there's still a struggle to totally get on within this group thanks to one individual. The shared family identity can't overcome that one individual's actions that foul up the harmony. So really individual responsibility and identity trumps the shared family element. 

    So I'm quite happy to say that "We are all human". As an individual, it's my duty to treat the people around me whether I know them or not with respect and decency. So perhaps if there is a shared cultural element that should unite us, it shouldn't be national anthems and Union Flag underpants: it should be an adherence to a high standard of moralism and a belief in taking responsibility for one's actions as an individual. That to me would be far healthier for society than saluting a flag or pledging allegiance to a country or President. 

    Utopia: to quote JDP from that lecture:

    "well we know what happened in the 20th century as a consequence of the widespread promulgation of utopian schemes and what happened was mayhem on a scale that had never been matched in the entire history of humanity and that’s really saying something because there was plenty of mayhem before the 20th century"

    -So what were these schemes? 

    A very interesting debate subject and that is what JDP is good at. I think a lot of his conclusions and theorising is addled nonsense, and quite often biased by his near loathing of Postmodernism and Marxism, but he throws up areas that lead to good debates. 
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2015
    No need to apologise at all :)

    I understand where you are coming from on a lot of that. I lived half my life outside the UK, my wife is Polish, I try and make sure my kids have as much exposure to their Polish heritage as I reasonably can (they spend the entire summer holiday in Poland for example). So I am no flag waving nationalist in the manner that is often paraded about in certain sections of the press. In fact my accent is such a mix that I am generally considered foreign in every country I go to.

    So I guess like you, I don't need to feel British/English to feel good about myself. I can look back on the history of this country and say that as a nation though, we have generally acted for the greater good, and even when we didn't, it was often with the intentions for the greater good, and actually, that is good enough that I would like to see me friends, neighbours and then countrymen share that same value. Because if nothing else, that is at least a basis of respect and understanding. It is a shared history, and a shared status. It is obviously that a lot of people in these splintered communities don't feel that, and they are the ones that we are hurting the most by in-picking the threads of society. It isn't you and me. However much time *we* spend overseas, we will *never*, *ever* feel like outsiders in the same way that some of the people do. Those holes are where the problems start. You say it is for those who feel weak. Absolutely, because those the most vulnerable. Those are the ones we should be helping, not hurting.

    Take a look at the US or Canada. Both have social issues too (certainly racial in the US), but at least they all feel American (or (almost all) Canadian). It doesn't solve all problems, but at least it is a start. Here, you get many people who are born here who can't associate themselves with many of their compatriots, yet their parents can! The second/third generation, born here, feel *less* British than their parents, who were not. They don't feel English/British, and some feel like they could never be considered either of those. But unlike racism in the US, these are problems we have largely inflicted upon ourselves. Not by bring foreign workers in, but by denying them (over the past couple of decades) with that piece of identity and belonging. So point about "we are all human" is that it isn't enough. It is worthless. Before people can start to take the moral high ground, and responsibility for making the world a better place, they need to feel like they are a place in it. I consider myself an introvert, and am perfectly happy in my own company. More than happy generally, but even so, I recognise the middle layer from Maslow's pyramid. Belonging. If you ask the average person of Indian or Pakistani origin, they will no doubt tell you that when they visit those countries, they are considered English, but here they don't feel English here, and don't feel like people consider them English either. We have done that. Yet you get a similar immigrant to another country (say the US again) and while they may feel foreign in Indian or Pakistan, at least they feel American.  

    So community and belonging are certainly no panacea, no cure all (as you point out, especially in my situation), but it is a way to fill that basic need. Conflict, competition, struggle, stress, none of those are going away. And (as you also mention) when other ways of connecting are becoming harder and harder, we should be trying to hold on to what we have left, not dismantling it because of some mis-guided theory in the end of the nation state. 

    The schemes of the 20th Century? Socialism, applied to the extreme, whether in Germany, Russia, China, Cambodia, or wherever. Good intentions, completely off the rails.

    I think he has so much to say, that he does drift from topic to topic and theory to theory rapidly. His videos can be a bit of a rollercoaster like that.


    I do understand where you are coming from. I would love to see ever kind of religion relegated to the dustbin of history, and think anyone who believes that nonsense should be deeply ashamed of themselves. But, right now, and it took me a while to come to terms with it, it serves a purpose. Nation states are similar. At some point when society is more advanced (we won't need it, I suspect identity will have sifted to the next level, so we will be Earthers, Martians or whatever), but we are not ready to make that leap. The world is too big in a habitable universe that is too small. 
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10474
    I understand the fun with accents. I've spent most of my life in this country being accused of being a long-lost Rees-Mogg only to end up in Toronto and have any number of locals ask me if I was Australian. It became a standing joke to tell people that I was of Dutch-Albanian heritage to puzzle them further. 

    And so I type as I figure out that it's time to upgrade to Windows 10 on the desktop and get ready to blitz everything...

    The history of our country could be used as the basis of respect for those in later life but respect and understanding is something taught to those much younger who don't have a grasp of history. Both qualities are taught as something that is expected and necessary so one wonders why these lessons are forgotten in adult life. 

    I agree that there are those in splintered communities who do not feel included. Many come from broken families and/or have suffered periods of unemployment. I'd hazard a wager that those who are disenfranchised and whom are indigenous to this country feel that a lot more than a lack of 'Britishness'. I've written here before about being stalked by a couple of BNP members in the past and ending up inviting them into the house for tea and cake. It was clear from what they said that they weren't racist types at heart but had latched onto an organisation to give them an identity that they hadn't gotten from their upbringing and because of a lack of employed work at the time in their lives. 

    I take your point about feeling American or Canadian but there is still no true national identity. The sort of stereotypical gay Canadian liberal in Toronto's view of what being Canadian is will likely be far different to someone from the more conservative areas of Alberta for instance. Be it American values or British values, it still feels like a very nebulous proposition. 

    With second and third generation who were born here, it is a complex matter. I'm sure you've seen reports of shortages of chefs able to work in curry restaurants. Part of the reason is that the younger generations don't have the same collective work ethic of their elders. 12 to 14 hours in a restaurant is being shunned. I don't think it's so much a case of them being denied an identity by the state or society and more a real clash of generational difference. Their elders saw Britain as an opportunity, the young ones don't know any different. Not all immigrants to this country feel un-British, for want of a better phrase. 

    So when JDP talks of nationalism and how it doesn't come from the top down, it feels a bit too much like 'all hope lies with the proles' and rainbow-eyed. His rejection of the utopian schemes that focus on socialism is pointed: his embrace of another branch of utopian piffle, namely religion, is very jarring to me. 

    I also freely admit that my own sense of individualism almost certainly makes me a utopian piffler! I don't like the harnessing of people to ideologies as that doesn't lead to clear analysis of those ideologies and decisions made because of them. When an ideology like nationalism is around, it's so undefined that I can't logically follow it. 
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10474
    Still, I bet I'm better than JDP at eradicating DPC latency in computer systems...
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2015
    I think (and don't take offense!) that your view reflects a very traditionally socialist view, in that if someone doesn't see the positive value in nationalism, they think no one does. Or because it doesn't mean anything to them, it doesn't mean anything to anyone else. 

    The whole point is, for those who are lacking that sense of community, identity, self-worth, etc. we are removing the *choice* of feeling something good about nationalism. We are removing the opportunity to feel some pride and belonging in who people are and who they connect with, and that is the major issue I think. It doesn't have to be for everyone, but that doesn't mean it has to be for no one. And that (in me completely uneducated opinion) is a major issue with socialism throughout history. I've said it in other threads, but you cannot have socialism without centralized control, it is an essential element, and we know what happens when control gets out of hand. I am not saying that all socialists are communists, but as written above, you can look at the 20th Century to see the dangers.

    Good luck with your Windows 10 upgrade :)
    Back
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10474
    I regard nationalism in the same way that I approach religion in that it means nothing to me whatsoever but I can still see positive elements within both. Spouting the bible in church when I was in the Cub Scouts meant fuck all to me whatsoever and I am a firm believer in our political system becoming secular but I also grew up seeing my grandmother going out there into the community and trying to help those less fortunate than herself because of her Christian faith. Religion is the same as communism, socialism, capitalism, and commercialism: it can be great until people corrupt it for nefarious purposes. Certainly I'd reject the idea that ,because nationalism means nothing to me, it means nothing to anyone else. That's a truly bizarre notion. It'd be like me deciding that my loathing of Wham! was matched by me believing that their musical output meant nothing to everyone else.

    "The whole point is, for those who are lacking that sense of community, identity, self-worth, etc. we are removing the *choice* of feeling something good about nationalism. We are removing the opportunity to feel some pride and belonging in who people are and who they connect with, and that is the major issue I think."

    Nationalism could be one approach, no question. If you find yourself bored, the whole world of civic nationalism is fascinating. With no official constitution, I doubt such a system could function in this country. Now if you do have a nationalist approach based around a country's constitution, then that could also be described as being controlled by a central power. 

    10 is in... and blow me down if it's actually working well. It's come a long way. 


    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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