Standing to the side of a cab - typical?

clarkefan

I've noticed I prefer to stand to the side of my 2x12 when I'm playing, it sounds better to me than standing directly in front of it.

I don't mean directly to the side, I mean almost, like about 80 degrees rather than 90.

The sound is just better, clearer, more detailed.  Standing right in front the sound is if anything "muffled" in comparison. 

What's going on here? Why would sound coming out of speakers sound better off at an axis and not straight on?

I should say this is playing with some volume at home, standing close to the cab.

ICBM

Speakers out of phase? Although that would typically sound thin on-axis, rather than muffled.

When you say standing to the side, is the cab on the floor so the speakers are level with your shins, or is it raised up or tilted back so they’re pointing more towards your ears?

clarkefan

@ICBM , the cab is on castors, so it's low and not tilted.

I'll check into phase, I doubt it but I suppose I could have hooked up something wrong last time I was in there.

But yes, definitely sounds better at an angle.  I was wondering (not ever experienced it) how the hell this would work onstage standing maybe 10 feet or more in front of a cab, must drive gigging guys nuts.

ICBM

It does, although you get used to finding the right spot to stand. The ‘beam’ is more of a problem usually, it can mess up the offstage mix if it’s pointing out into the audience. Mostly you get around that by deliberately facing the cab off to the side or up into the air... Bruce Springsteen uses a pair of Marshall cabs lying on their backs and literally pointing almost straight up!

clarkefan

Wow! I've only ever seen Pat Mcmanus do that live (the angled thing, not the straight up thing ) and I thought it was cos of volume blast age, I've never seen anybody else do it though.

Why does it happen, you'd sort of expect speakers to sound best straight-on?

Modellista

Didn't @p90fool have a trick where he puts gaffer tape in a cross behind the front baffle to spread the sound better? 

p90fool

I do that to all my cabs, but actually for the opposite problem - most are very bright on axis, and dull-sounding off to one side. 

The OP's cab sounds like it has a problem to me, they're not typical on/off axis symptoms IME. 

EDIT; The gaffer tape 'X' wasn't actually my idea, it's an SRV trick, and is surprisingly effective in making your cab sound the same wherever you stand.  

ICBM

clarkefan said:

Wow! I've only ever seen Pat Mcmanus do that live (the angled thing, not the straight up thing ) and I thought it was cos of volume blast age, I've never seen anybody else do it though.

Why does it happen, you'd sort of expect speakers to sound best straight-on?

Sort of - or at least brightest. In practice it can be too much - I normally don't like the speakers pointing directly at my ears at short range, I always find that makes them sound too brash and trebly, so I end up dialling in the amp too quiet and dark. Even when mic'ed, it doesn't seem to give the right correlation to the sound through the PA.

The best for me is to have the amp with the speakers at about waist height, not tilted back, and standing straight in front or maybe very slightly off-centre. That gives a very good correlation between how I hear it and how it sounds out in the room or via the PA. I also try not to have it pointing straight out into the crowd, so it usually ends up facing across the stage at an angle, aimed roughly at the opposite front corner of the stage, if that makes sense.

modellista said:

Didn't @p90fool have a trick where he puts gaffer tape in a cross behind the front baffle to spread the sound better? 

The gaffer tape cross does work because it breaks up the 'beaming' effect to an extent, but best of all is something called a 'Mitchell Donut' (American spelling ) which - in theory at least - should completely remove it and make the sound almost uniform anywhere in front of the cab. I haven't tried it personally, but it gets good reports and the physics is correct.

p90fool said:

I do that to all my cabs, but actually for the opposite problem - most are very bright on axis, and dull-sounding off to one side. 

The OP's cab sounds like it has a problem to me, they're not typical on/off axis symptoms IME.

I agree, it doesn't actually sound like either the typical 'beam' effect or a phase issue, so I don't know what it is! Although raising it up may help, it could be something to do with reflections off the floor or something...

clarkefan

Hmm, reflections off the floor, or box room walls for that matter

I'll deffo check out the phasing, and maybe move the rig to see if it happens in a different room, I'll report back.

Thanks all for your thoughts and experiences, every day's an education round here

57Deluxe

but you miss out on your flares wavering around in the breeze...

ESBlonde

One more question. Are the cone drivers matched or is one say celestian and one fane? 
This might have an effect on projection. Have you stood the can on end and seen where the best sound is? It could be enlightening with the effect of an array.

bbill335

FWIW I noticed the same effect as the OP with my little Anker bluetooth speaker. Sounds clearer when I'm off to the side. But then, that's got all sorts of vents and ports to mimic the bass response of bigger drivers so it's not really a good analogy.

DJH83004

IC isn't the Mitchell Donut a foam insert that fits into the speaker hole to disperse the beam effect? I only know because I had a cab in for repair fitted with one some time ago - and hadn't got a clue what it was   

clarkefan

ESBlonde said:

One more question. Are the cone drivers matched or is one say celestian and one fane? 
This might have an effect on projection. Have you stood the can on end and seen where the best sound is? It could be enlightening with the effect of an array.

Hi it's a Marshall 2x12 with 80s Celestion G12T -75's. 

No I haven't tried moving it about but good idea to look into.  I'm also intrigued by the Boss lying his cabs on their back, if what I'm hearing is typical I can see why that might be a good idea as well  Just need the missus to go out for a few hours

ICBM

DJH83004 said:

IC isn't the Mitchell Donut a foam insert that fits into the speaker hole to disperse the beam effect? I only know because I had a cab in for repair fitted with one some time ago - and hadn't got a clue what it was   

Yes. It's actually based on the correct physics that the 'beam' isn't caused by the centre of the speaker producing too much treble (which was the theory behind 'beam blockers' which don't really work), it's caused by the wavefront from everywhere on the whole speaker cone lining up in phase when you're dead on the axis of the cone, which means that's the only place you hear *all* the frequencies at the full volume. Off-axis, the high frequencies coming from different parts of the cone start to progressively get out of phase with each other so they cancel out a bit, hence the tone is duller.

The 'Donut' fixes this by diffusing the high frequencies from everywhere on the cone, so there's no longer a 'lining up' effect on-axis, and the result is that the sound should be the same as the off-axis sound everywhere.

p90fool's gaffer tape will do something of the same, just by disrupting the equal transmission from all areas of the cone. It probably doesn't even have to be a cross - different patterns might work equally well.

I even wonder whether some of the idea that very heavy grille cloth like the old Marshall basketweave makes cabs sound better is due to this, rather than simply blocking high frequencies.

impmann

I used to gig with someone who would turn their 4x12 cab to face the back wall of any pub they played in. They'd then dial it in (LOUD) and it would fill the room. Tbh, his sound was OK (not as bassy as you'd think) but I couldn't help thinking turning it down and turning it round would have been better. He claimed he got the idea from seeing Duck's DeLuxe (1970s pub rock band) back in the day.