Florida shooting ...

VimFuego

I'm just trying to imagine the reaction if you turned up with a samurai sword or something. Or a baseball bat with nails hammered into it.

dano

VimFuego said:

I'm just trying to imagine the reaction if you turned up with a samurai sword or something. Or a baseball bat with nails hammered into it.

They'd probably shoot you for being a potentially dangerous mentally ill nutter bringing a weapon into work

dano

VimFuego said:

I can't imagine many circumstances in the average workplace where you're gonna need a gun.

Exactly. 

I went to a "trendy" cafe / coffee shop for lunch a few months ago near our office, which is on the edge of the campus of the University of Michigan.  A college girl sitting next to me in the cafe reached into her laptop bag and as well as he laptop coming out also came a 9mm pistol.  She was a hot blonde too.

JezWynd

dano said:

VimFuego said:

I can't imagine many circumstances in the average workplace where you're gonna need a gun.

Exactly. 

I went to a "trendy" cafe / coffee shop for lunch a few months ago near our office, which is on the edge of the campus of the University of Michigan.  A college girl sitting next to me in the cafe reached into her laptop bag and as well as he laptop coming out also came a 9mm pistol.  She was a hot blonde too.

Some are living in a movie of their own devising. It truly is La La Land.

Boromedic

digitalscream said:

Boromedic said:

Actually America has way more gun ownership than everywhere else. As a proportion it has 42% of all the registered guns in the world. This inaccurate reporting of places like Canada having more guns keeps popping up, but is distinctly untrue. This article explains it well, in that its more likely the amount of guns as the root cause rather than any particular American psyche argument. 

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html?referer=http://m.facebook.com

If they have 42% of all legal weapons, I dread to think how many illegal weapons are in circulation.

For me, the telling statistic is that there are just over 101 registered guns in America for every 100 inhabitants.

An excellent reason not to go there, I think.

That is a crazy stat too when you think about it, highlights the scale of the problem.

jonnyburgo

Once again a loner slips through the net, a troubled individual that went ignored, usually bullied at school and with few friends. Another person that felt like nobody cared. This builds up into a murderous aggression and a hatred of the world. Expulsion from school would have been another indicator of rejection that only goes to increase feelings of uselessness and self hate. This is the usual profile. More early  intervention is needed here. This kid was failed on so many levels, the sign posts being ignored or overlooked. It’s a tragedy for sure, but throwing around words like evil  and nutjob are just distracting from the real issues.

seany65

I'm just wondering how anyone could ban legal guns for non-criminal people if they don't also disarm the criminals?

underdog

seany65 said:

I'm just wondering how anyone could ban legal guns for non-criminal people if they don't also disarm the criminals?

Huh? 

Criminals operate outside the law, isn't that what makes them criminals? Truth of the matter is most of the people carrying out shootings like this weren't anything more than you're average person that got incredibly pissed off with something. The difference being in the US that average guy can arm himself like a soldier easier than he can buy beer.

In other countries with strict gun control that person would go out to town and start a fight, they may even take a knife or a bat but they wouldn't be able harm a significant amount of people before someone stops him, different story with an assault rifle though.

You seem to be of the opinion that good guys with guns stops bad guys with guns, the reality is it just means the criminals need more guns, bigger guns and be prepared to shoot first. It raises the stakes, it doesn't make anything safer.

digitalscream

seany65 said:

I'm just wondering how anyone could ban legal guns for non-criminal people if they don't also disarm the criminals?

AKA...

"We're totally ineffective at enforcing laws which stop criminals getting guns, so I guess we'd better just give everyone guns and make it a shooting gallery."

Teetonetal

dano said:

Guns Don't Kill People, Americans Do.


I'e only skimmed the thread so it may have been already posted but other countries have much higher gun ownership that the USA such as Canada, Australia, Switzerland, some Scandinavian countries.  With the odd exception they have nowhere near the level of mass shootings.

To me it's about the American psyche. As a nation they have huge underlying aggressivness to them.  A very real pasive agressiveness, you upset an American and he will happily get his gun to sort out differences.

That's what they need to sort.out.

Can only speak for Switzerland... 1st we do have occasional mass shootings. Last year a guy went to work and shot as many people as he could. This year another guy walked into a health insurance office and shot all the staff.

Both had severe mental health issues.

Those are the only 2 examples I can think of in 10 years here and I have to say I feel really safe here.

A few things:
Almost all Swiss males go to the army. They can keep their gun. They are taught to respect them.
Swiss are very law abiding.
Guns and gun ownership is not romantised
You can't buy a gun over the counter
You certainly can't own semi automatic assult weapons Edit: Apparently you can.
Shooting ranges are fairly sedate affairs.
You can't wander around with a gun. Edit again you can with a permit.

I think all of those things make a difference. Even if the American population could change its attitude a bit... things might improve.

Teetonetal

Swiss Regulation

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/society/bearing-arms_how-gun-loving-switzerland-regulates-its-firearms/43573832?srg_sm_campaign=general&srg_sm_medium=soc&srg_sm_source=sflow

HAL9000

Flink_Poyd said:

This isnt the exact gun he was using but it was an AR-15



Its ridiculous that these are available to the general public

What about the hollow-point ammo? Surely that isn't available, or is it?

Flink_Poyd

HAL9000 said:

Flink_Poyd said:

This isnt the exact gun he was using but it was an AR-15



Its ridiculous that these are available to the general public

What about the hollow-point ammo? Surely that isn't available, or is it?

Honestly dont know, I just wanted to show that he was using a semi automatic  rifle he bought legally

These look like theyre available to the public

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/388966/hornady-critical-defense-ammunition-9mm-luger-115-grain-flex-tip-expanding-box-of-25

"Hornady Critical Defense Ammunition was purpose built for concealed carry guns and designed to deliver reliable and controlled expansion regardless of target every time.. Critical Defense Ammunition is loaded with Hornady's  bullet which has a soft polymer insert that delivers superior controlled expansion and large, deep wound cavities over a wide range of velocities. Each round is loaded into a nickel case for increased visibility in low-light situations and premium low flash propellants that deliver proven performance, even in very short-barreled handguns that will not disrupt your vision.

• Unaffected by thick and heavy clothing, including denim and leather
• bullet delivers superior controlled expansion and large, deep wound cavities over a wide range of velocities
• Clean burning and efficient propellants reduce recoil in lightweight handguns, and perform consistently at all temperatures
• Minimal muzzle flash protect night vision
• Feeds reliably in pistols
• Silver nickel plating prevents corrosion and is easily visible in low light situations
• Bullets are custom designed for individual loads
• Effective, consistent, reliable self-defense ammunition

This ammunition was designed by Hornady to expand every single time. This ammunition is new production, non-corrosive, in boxer primed, reloadable brass cases

Made In United States of America"

56p per bullet. Cheaper than a packet of chicken noodle soup mix

https://groceries.morrisons.com/webshop/product/Grace-Chicken-Noodle-Soup-Mix/234026011?from=search&tags=|105651&param=soup&parentContainer=SEARCHsoup

Axe_meister

If I where an American I would pass all background checks and buy a fucking big gun. What If I lost my job in a years time, my wife and kids left we and stripped me of everything I have. I might just loose it with a bloody big gun.

Neil

Axe_meister said:

If I where an American I would pass all background checks and buy a fucking big gun. What If I lost my job in a years time, my wife and kids left we and stripped me of everything I have. I might just loose it with a bloody big gun.

That's exactly the sort of scenario around most mass shootings.

Loner or loser has a grudge against the world, gets his gun kills as many people as he can and then turns the gun on himself. 

Plenty of people like that here but no way of slaughtering lots of innocent people.

It's simply the proliferation of guns in the US that is the problem and the Americans won't give them up.

No amount of hand wringing from (as they see it) meek government controlled liberal lefties in foreign countries is going to stop them.

It's the obverse side to the American dream.

Moominpapa

"delivers superior controlled expansion and large, deep wound cavities over a wide range of velocities."
Well that's reassuring to know - wouldn't want to be leaving just shallow wound cavities in my ex-classmates.

danishbacon

https://eand.co/why-were-underestimating-american-collapse-be04d9e55235?source=user_profile---------24----------------

An interesting read if you've got the time, published a few weeks before Florida. 

VimFuego

nice article, thanks for sharing. It was a bit polemical IMO, I would've liked to see some stats and figures, but as an editorial or opinion style piece, it was interesting reading.

danishbacon

VimFuego said:

nice article, thanks for sharing. It was a bit polemical IMO, I would've liked to see some stats and figures, but as an editorial or opinion style piece, it was interesting reading.

Indeed and it touches upon some very uncomfortable truths about life in the land of the free, home of the brave. It's an increasingly individualistic society (bumper stickers "your fair share is not in my wallet", story of car on fire outside starbucks but staff declining access to fire extinguisher, families left to deal with the cancer lottery, losing homes in order to cover treatment etc). 

I was there before, during and after 9/11 and it really was a pivotal moment. All of the underlying traits that have fully bubbled up today were there to some extent at the time but the country became even more polarised, topics politicised, political correctness and liability fear taken to the edge of extreme, and a persistent sort of collective paranoia took hold. 

The rhetoric is scary, ''pure evil" "mental health" "let's not talk about gun control" "harden the soft targets". Very few seem to be questioning that this is not normal behaviour. 

Or maybe they've just accepted it as the new normal and f÷ it. 

VimFuego

Yeah I recall seeing something a while back now, you can buy bulletproof backpacks for kids and it shocked me. I mentioned it to some US based friends and  they thought it was a great idea, one said it's a great example of the market responding to a need. For me, the very need of something like that should be a huge wakeup call, a rubicon moment so to speak, an indicator of how far things have fallen.