Is Brexit collapsing? Should the UK remain?

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FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16962
edited February 21 in Politics Economics
Theresa May has asked the EU for what amounts to an open-ended transition period - she argues this is due to the complexities involved in actually leaving. Fair enough. During this time we get no votes, we have to pay as usual, allow free movement, are bound by EU laws and the ECJ ... is it time to say this is a bad idea and remain? Is this what May wants?

Johnson and Mogg are hopping mad apparently .....

Read more here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/02/21/theresa-may-accused-brexit-betrayal-asks-eu-make-transition/


I'm thinking we might as well stay in the EU .. this is beyond a joke.

My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • jellyrolljellyroll Frets: 2176
    edited February 21
    Surely paying and voting should go hand in hand? Either we should either pay & vote or don't pay/don't vote? 

    Personally, I'd be happy with any cobbled together solution that meant in effect we don't leave (subject to my comment above).
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  • VimFuegoVimFuego Frets: 6256
    well, I voted remain so am probably not your target audience. I would describe myself as a reluctant remainer and I think I still am. I have seen nothing in the negotiation phase to convince me that leaving will work to our benefit (at least in the short and medium term, long tern I think the EU is doomed anyways). My own take on it is when the final deal is negotiated, the govt should go back to the people say, this is the deal, do we take it or do we opt to remain? I realise this puts us in neverendium territory but the stakes are so high and the govt have shown themselves to be so hopelessly not up to the task that we need to have a say in the final outcome. 

    I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.

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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16962
    VimFuego said:
    well, I voted remain so am probably not your target audience. I would describe myself as a reluctant remainer and I think I still am. I have seen nothing in the negotiation phase to convince me that leaving will work to our benefit (at least in the short and medium term, long tern I think the EU is doomed anyways). My own take on it is when the final deal is negotiated, the govt should go back to the people say, this is the deal, do we take it or do we opt to remain? I realise this puts us in neverendium territory but the stakes are so high and the govt have shown themselves to be so hopelessly not up to the task that we need to have a say in the final outcome. 
    I think I've changed my mind .. I wonder how many other people who voted leave feel the same way?
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11476
    edited February 21

    Is this what she wants? Doubtful. A protracted period of paying in with no clout will do nothing for her chances of staying in power for longer. 

    But there is still this idea pushed that it is perfectly possible for Britain to simply say "Right, we're leaving" and have it done in a jiffy. It speaks volumes for the Telegraph's position that the first politician quoted in that article above is Gerard "Brexit can be done in a matter of months" Batten. If we stay on free trade deals alone, they are not struck quickly. India have said it would take years to do deals with us. Other deals around the world have taken a long time. NAFTA took 8-9 years. So when you add in having to unstitch our country from the EU, sort out tax issues, points of law, bills and legislation, it's baffling to me how so many on the Leave side think that all of this is down to May trying to stitch up Leave and not because it's a fucking enormous complex task. 

    Richard Tombs' words about how the referendum was a disaster for Labour now ring even more hollow. But one does get the sense that the notions of a double-barrelled entry on the PM list is looking more and more likely. Poor Jacob. How will he cope with having to downsize and slum it in Downing Street? 


    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • VimFuegoVimFuego Frets: 6256
    Fretwired said:
    VimFuego said:
    well, I voted remain so am probably not your target audience. I would describe myself as a reluctant remainer and I think I still am. I have seen nothing in the negotiation phase to convince me that leaving will work to our benefit (at least in the short and medium term, long tern I think the EU is doomed anyways). My own take on it is when the final deal is negotiated, the govt should go back to the people say, this is the deal, do we take it or do we opt to remain? I realise this puts us in neverendium territory but the stakes are so high and the govt have shown themselves to be so hopelessly not up to the task that we need to have a say in the final outcome. 
    I think I've changed my mind .. I wonder how many other people who voted leave feel the same way?
    obviously we'd never know until there is a/if there is another ref, but I have a gut feeling that there would be enough, plus a few more snowflakes may get out of bed this time to vote as well, to swing it to remain.
    Of course, if this does happen, we have another 40 odd years of brexiters whining and complaining. But I guess if it doesn't. we have 40 odd years of remainers saying "I told you so" every time something goes bad. 

    I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.

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  • exocetexocet Frets: 557
    edited February 21
    Was it ever going to be practical? Did the electorate care about complexities? 

    My view hasn't changed. I have no love for the institution that is the EU but can see that the UK has become entrenched in its market, supply chains and "by proxy" agreements with god knows how many countries. 

    We stayed out of the Euro, which has always been a "red line" for me and we had various other opt outs that pretty much gave us a very good position compared to the majority of EU states.

    I never felt that the EU was holding the UK back, we are quite capable of creating our own problems and limiting our own horizons whilst blaming others.

    I always felt that we could "use" what the EU had to offer until things became completely unworkable - at which point we could leave rapidly.  As for more trade outside of the EU than in it? Yes, I get that but I'm sure that the EU aren't blind to that either and if you are China or the US, you'd prioritise a deal with the EU than a "disconnected place" just off the coast.

    I really haven't enjoyed the post referendum experience and think that the "divide" between leave and remain will take a generation to heal.

    Personally I don't trust the leave protagonists. I feel that they have no vision or rather they have false expectations about what the UK can achieve when "cut free".

    There is no easy answer except a general election where the question is part of party manifesto....which party backs what is anyone's guess.

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  • GarthyGarthy Frets: 1892
    Fretwired said:
    Theresa May has asked the EU for what amounts to an open-ended transition period - she argues this is due to the complexities involved in actually leaving. Fair enough. During this time we get no votes, we have to pay as usual, allow free movement, are bound by EU laws and the ECJ ... is it time to say this is a bad idea and remain? Is this what May wants?

    Johnson and Mogg are hopping mad apparently .....

    Read more here:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/02/21/theresa-may-accused-brexit-betrayal-asks-eu-make-transition/


    I'm thinking we might as well stay in the EU .. this is beyond a joke.

    It's going a hell of a lot better than George Osbourne said it would on the eve of the referendum.
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  • domforrdomforr Frets: 163
    edited February 21
    ...and a hell of a lot worse than the land of sunshine promised by Johnson, Farage and Gove. Notice how the objectives have shifted from 'Global Britannia striding around the globe', to 'things will be pretty much the same as they were' and then finally 'it won't be a complete and utter catastrophe'. Fantasy can only last so long before fact and reality hit home. 
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16962
    exocet said:
    Was it ever going to be practical? Did the electorate care about complexities? 

    My view hasn't changed. I have no love for the institution that is the EU but can see that the UK has become entrenched in its market, supply chains and "by proxy" agreements with god knows how many countries. 

    We stayed out of the Euro, which has always been a "red line" for me and we had various other opt outs that pretty much gave us a very good position compared to the majority of EU states.

    I never felt that the EU was holding the UK back, we are quite capable of creating our own problems and limiting our own horizons whilst blaming others.

    I always felt that we could "use" what the EU had to offer until things became completely unworkable - at which point we could leave rapidly.  As for more trade outside of the EU than in it? Yes, I get that but I'm sure that the EU aren't blind to that either and if you are China or the US, you'd prioritise a deal with the EU than a "disconnected place" just off the coast.

    I really haven't enjoyed the post referendum experience and think that the "divide" between leave and remain will take a generation to heal.

    Personally I don't trust the leave protagonists. I feel that they have no vision or rather they have false expectations about what the UK can achieve when "cut free".

    There is no easy answer except a general election where the question is part of party manifesto....which party backs what is anyone's guess.

    You do realise our Euro block won't last forever. The EU has already passed a law stating all new members need to take the Euro when their economies are aligned. If we remain then I want the Euro and quick. We have to sit at the top table and it will at least make trading easier.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • SassafrasSassafras Frets: 12390
    It might've helped if they'd devised a comprehensive plan for leaving before holding a referendum they were under no obligation to hold.
    Now they're just winging it.
    Making it up as they go along.
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  • exocetexocet Frets: 557
    Fretwired said:
    exocet said:
    Was it ever going to be practical? Did the electorate care about complexities? 

    My view hasn't changed. I have no love for the institution that is the EU but can see that the UK has become entrenched in its market, supply chains and "by proxy" agreements with god knows how many countries. 

    We stayed out of the Euro, which has always been a "red line" for me and we had various other opt outs that pretty much gave us a very good position compared to the majority of EU states.

    I never felt that the EU was holding the UK back, we are quite capable of creating our own problems and limiting our own horizons whilst blaming others.

    I always felt that we could "use" what the EU had to offer until things became completely unworkable - at which point we could leave rapidly.  As for more trade outside of the EU than in it? Yes, I get that but I'm sure that the EU aren't blind to that either and if you are China or the US, you'd prioritise a deal with the EU than a "disconnected place" just off the coast.

    I really haven't enjoyed the post referendum experience and think that the "divide" between leave and remain will take a generation to heal.

    Personally I don't trust the leave protagonists. I feel that they have no vision or rather they have false expectations about what the UK can achieve when "cut free".

    There is no easy answer except a general election where the question is part of party manifesto....which party backs what is anyone's guess.

    You do realise our Euro block won't last forever. The EU has already passed a law stating all new members need to take the Euro when their economies are aligned. If we remain then I want the Euro and quick. We have to sit at the top table and it will at least make trading easier.
    I've heard it stated many times but I just don't believe that it will happen. The Scandic nations won't go for it.
    I agree that it'll be mandatory for all new entrants including U.K should we ever be in that position.

    I'm very surprised that  you want it - what made you change your position? The UK economy couldn't cope unless we started from scratch / erased all property debts / freed up land ownership, disbanded the Monarchy / moved to PR based electoral system etc?
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 32822
    exocet said:

    I've heard it stated many times but I just don't believe that it will happen. The Scandic nations won't go for it.
    I agree that it'll be mandatory for all new entrants including U.K should we ever be in that position.
    It will never happen.

    Not joining it turned out to be the greatest service Gordon Brown ever did for this country, and I say that as someone who was initially disappointed that we didn't.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16962
    exocet said:
    Fretwired said:
    exocet said:
    Was it ever going to be practical? Did the electorate care about complexities? 

    My view hasn't changed. I have no love for the institution that is the EU but can see that the UK has become entrenched in its market, supply chains and "by proxy" agreements with god knows how many countries. 

    We stayed out of the Euro, which has always been a "red line" for me and we had various other opt outs that pretty much gave us a very good position compared to the majority of EU states.

    I never felt that the EU was holding the UK back, we are quite capable of creating our own problems and limiting our own horizons whilst blaming others.

    I always felt that we could "use" what the EU had to offer until things became completely unworkable - at which point we could leave rapidly.  As for more trade outside of the EU than in it? Yes, I get that but I'm sure that the EU aren't blind to that either and if you are China or the US, you'd prioritise a deal with the EU than a "disconnected place" just off the coast.

    I really haven't enjoyed the post referendum experience and think that the "divide" between leave and remain will take a generation to heal.

    Personally I don't trust the leave protagonists. I feel that they have no vision or rather they have false expectations about what the UK can achieve when "cut free".

    There is no easy answer except a general election where the question is part of party manifesto....which party backs what is anyone's guess.

    You do realise our Euro block won't last forever. The EU has already passed a law stating all new members need to take the Euro when their economies are aligned. If we remain then I want the Euro and quick. We have to sit at the top table and it will at least make trading easier.
    I've heard it stated many times but I just don't believe that it will happen. The Scandic nations won't go for it.
    I agree that it'll be mandatory for all new entrants including U.K should we ever be in that position.

    I'm very surprised that  you want it - what made you change your position? The UK economy couldn't cope unless we started from scratch / erased all property debts / freed up land ownership, disbanded the Monarchy / moved to PR based electoral system etc?
    What? There's only Denmark. The people have said no but the government is keen.

    No Euro no seat at the top table. I really don't get why people want to remain and yet don't want to be at the heart of the project. It's bonkers.

    If we do remain we should take the Euro - no ifs not buts ... 
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • exocetexocet Frets: 557
    Fretwired said:
    exocet said:
    Fretwired said:
    exocet said:
    Was it ever going to be practical? Did the electorate care about complexities? 

    My view hasn't changed. I have no love for the institution that is the EU but can see that the UK has become entrenched in its market, supply chains and "by proxy" agreements with god knows how many countries. 

    We stayed out of the Euro, which has always been a "red line" for me and we had various other opt outs that pretty much gave us a very good position compared to the majority of EU states.

    I never felt that the EU was holding the UK back, we are quite capable of creating our own problems and limiting our own horizons whilst blaming others.

    I always felt that we could "use" what the EU had to offer until things became completely unworkable - at which point we could leave rapidly.  As for more trade outside of the EU than in it? Yes, I get that but I'm sure that the EU aren't blind to that either and if you are China or the US, you'd prioritise a deal with the EU than a "disconnected place" just off the coast.

    I really haven't enjoyed the post referendum experience and think that the "divide" between leave and remain will take a generation to heal.

    Personally I don't trust the leave protagonists. I feel that they have no vision or rather they have false expectations about what the UK can achieve when "cut free".

    There is no easy answer except a general election where the question is part of party manifesto....which party backs what is anyone's guess.

    You do realise our Euro block won't last forever. The EU has already passed a law stating all new members need to take the Euro when their economies are aligned. If we remain then I want the Euro and quick. We have to sit at the top table and it will at least make trading easier.
    I've heard it stated many times but I just don't believe that it will happen. The Scandic nations won't go for it.
    I agree that it'll be mandatory for all new entrants including U.K should we ever be in that position.

    I'm very surprised that  you want it - what made you change your position? The UK economy couldn't cope unless we started from scratch / erased all property debts / freed up land ownership, disbanded the Monarchy / moved to PR based electoral system etc?
    What? There's only Denmark. The people have said no but the government is keen.


    Sweeden / Norway - pretty sure they don't want it either?
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11476
    exocet said:
    Was it ever going to be practical? Did the electorate care about complexities? 


    Were they ever told that it would be complex and difficult? Hearing and reading so much pro-Leave commentary on newspapers and in the workplace about how Brexit should have be a short job, one says no. 

    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • exocetexocet Frets: 557
    edited February 21
    exocet said:
    Was it ever going to be practical? Did the electorate care about complexities? 


    Were they ever told that it would be complex and difficult? Hearing and reading so much pro-Leave commentary on newspapers and in the workplace about how Brexit should have be a short job, one says no. 

    Difficult to say but I can see that taking that approach would have been inseparable to many from "Project Fear"?
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11476
    Which is why you ended up with certain Leave positions being 'Project Fear is pie in the sky scaremongering fantasy - but hey, we can leave the EU and secure trade deals in a matter of months'. Project Fear, meet Project Bullshit. 
    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11476
    And to introduce humour, here's my favourite tweet of the day from Sir Paul Jenkins. Morphine.... mmmmmmm.


    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • GarthyGarthy Frets: 1892
    Fretwired said:
    exocet said:
    Fretwired said:
    exocet said:
    Was it ever going to be practical? Did the electorate care about complexities? 

    My view hasn't changed. I have no love for the institution that is the EU but can see that the UK has become entrenched in its market, supply chains and "by proxy" agreements with god knows how many countries. 

    We stayed out of the Euro, which has always been a "red line" for me and we had various other opt outs that pretty much gave us a very good position compared to the majority of EU states.

    I never felt that the EU was holding the UK back, we are quite capable of creating our own problems and limiting our own horizons whilst blaming others.

    I always felt that we could "use" what the EU had to offer until things became completely unworkable - at which point we could leave rapidly.  As for more trade outside of the EU than in it? Yes, I get that but I'm sure that the EU aren't blind to that either and if you are China or the US, you'd prioritise a deal with the EU than a "disconnected place" just off the coast.

    I really haven't enjoyed the post referendum experience and think that the "divide" between leave and remain will take a generation to heal.

    Personally I don't trust the leave protagonists. I feel that they have no vision or rather they have false expectations about what the UK can achieve when "cut free".

    There is no easy answer except a general election where the question is part of party manifesto....which party backs what is anyone's guess.

    You do realise our Euro block won't last forever. The EU has already passed a law stating all new members need to take the Euro when their economies are aligned. If we remain then I want the Euro and quick. We have to sit at the top table and it will at least make trading easier.
    I've heard it stated many times but I just don't believe that it will happen. The Scandic nations won't go for it.
    I agree that it'll be mandatory for all new entrants including U.K should we ever be in that position.

    I'm very surprised that  you want it - what made you change your position? The UK economy couldn't cope unless we started from scratch / erased all property debts / freed up land ownership, disbanded the Monarchy / moved to PR based electoral system etc?
    What? There's only Denmark. The people have said no but the government is keen.

    No Euro no seat at the top table. I really don't get why people want to remain and yet don't want to be at the heart of the project. It's bonkers.

    If we do remain we should take the Euro - no ifs not buts ... 
    Had we been in the Euro in 2007 we would have needed bailing out by the IMF and we really would have seen what 'too big to save' really meant vs 'too big to fail'. We are in a worse position today (or even pre referendum) than we were in February 2007 before the shit hit the big fan.
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16962
    exocet said:
    Fretwired said:
    exocet said:
    Fretwired said:
    exocet said:
    Was it ever going to be practical? Did the electorate care about complexities? 

    My view hasn't changed. I have no love for the institution that is the EU but can see that the UK has become entrenched in its market, supply chains and "by proxy" agreements with god knows how many countries. 

    We stayed out of the Euro, which has always been a "red line" for me and we had various other opt outs that pretty much gave us a very good position compared to the majority of EU states.

    I never felt that the EU was holding the UK back, we are quite capable of creating our own problems and limiting our own horizons whilst blaming others.

    I always felt that we could "use" what the EU had to offer until things became completely unworkable - at which point we could leave rapidly.  As for more trade outside of the EU than in it? Yes, I get that but I'm sure that the EU aren't blind to that either and if you are China or the US, you'd prioritise a deal with the EU than a "disconnected place" just off the coast.

    I really haven't enjoyed the post referendum experience and think that the "divide" between leave and remain will take a generation to heal.

    Personally I don't trust the leave protagonists. I feel that they have no vision or rather they have false expectations about what the UK can achieve when "cut free".

    There is no easy answer except a general election where the question is part of party manifesto....which party backs what is anyone's guess.

    You do realise our Euro block won't last forever. The EU has already passed a law stating all new members need to take the Euro when their economies are aligned. If we remain then I want the Euro and quick. We have to sit at the top table and it will at least make trading easier.
    I've heard it stated many times but I just don't believe that it will happen. The Scandic nations won't go for it.
    I agree that it'll be mandatory for all new entrants including U.K should we ever be in that position.

    I'm very surprised that  you want it - what made you change your position? The UK economy couldn't cope unless we started from scratch / erased all property debts / freed up land ownership, disbanded the Monarchy / moved to PR based electoral system etc?
    What? There's only Denmark. The people have said no but the government is keen.


    Sweeden / Norway - pretty sure they don't want it either?
    Norway is not in the EU so is irrelevant and Sweden is committed to taking the Euro. Only Denmark and UK have opt outs.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16962
    Garthy said:
    Fretwired said:
    exocet said:
    Fretwired said:
    exocet said:
    Was it ever going to be practical? Did the electorate care about complexities? 

    My view hasn't changed. I have no love for the institution that is the EU but can see that the UK has become entrenched in its market, supply chains and "by proxy" agreements with god knows how many countries. 

    We stayed out of the Euro, which has always been a "red line" for me and we had various other opt outs that pretty much gave us a very good position compared to the majority of EU states.

    I never felt that the EU was holding the UK back, we are quite capable of creating our own problems and limiting our own horizons whilst blaming others.

    I always felt that we could "use" what the EU had to offer until things became completely unworkable - at which point we could leave rapidly.  As for more trade outside of the EU than in it? Yes, I get that but I'm sure that the EU aren't blind to that either and if you are China or the US, you'd prioritise a deal with the EU than a "disconnected place" just off the coast.

    I really haven't enjoyed the post referendum experience and think that the "divide" between leave and remain will take a generation to heal.

    Personally I don't trust the leave protagonists. I feel that they have no vision or rather they have false expectations about what the UK can achieve when "cut free".

    There is no easy answer except a general election where the question is part of party manifesto....which party backs what is anyone's guess.

    You do realise our Euro block won't last forever. The EU has already passed a law stating all new members need to take the Euro when their economies are aligned. If we remain then I want the Euro and quick. We have to sit at the top table and it will at least make trading easier.
    I've heard it stated many times but I just don't believe that it will happen. The Scandic nations won't go for it.
    I agree that it'll be mandatory for all new entrants including U.K should we ever be in that position.

    I'm very surprised that  you want it - what made you change your position? The UK economy couldn't cope unless we started from scratch / erased all property debts / freed up land ownership, disbanded the Monarchy / moved to PR based electoral system etc?
    What? There's only Denmark. The people have said no but the government is keen.

    No Euro no seat at the top table. I really don't get why people want to remain and yet don't want to be at the heart of the project. It's bonkers.

    If we do remain we should take the Euro - no ifs not buts ... 
    Had we been in the Euro in 2007 we would have needed bailing out by the IMF and we really would have seen what 'too big to save' really meant vs 'too big to fail'. We are in a worse position today (or even pre referendum) than we were in February 2007 before the shit hit the big fan.
    You are correct but times have changed.

    Are you really going to pay for a first class ticket and sit in economy?
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • GarthyGarthy Frets: 1892
    Fretwired said:

    You are correct but times have changed.

    Are you really going to pay for a first class ticket and sit in economy?
    Sitting on the sea bed it doesn't really matter.
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  • IMO I'd rather "crash" out of the EU than stay in. The Euro is a joke. the whole EU is a corrupt beurocratic shambles. Doesn't mean our own politicians get things right, they don't, but if Joe Public wanted to rise up against them it would be a lot easier than trying to rise up against the EU.
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16962
    Labour have broken cover - the UK must remain in the Customs Union and Single Market. That means they want to remain in the EU doesn't it?
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • domforrdomforr Frets: 163
    They still seem to be playing word games.

    ''
    McDonnell said Labour was “not supporting membership of ‘the’ customs union, but we are looking at ‘a’ customs union''.

    Basically still a have cake and eat it stance - we want to leave but have all the benefits. Having said that they do seem to be in the process of shifting their position, largely due to the huge pressure they're coming under to put practical realities before ideologies.

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  • FX_MunkeeFX_Munkee Frets: 1997
    The only real pressure I see being put on Labour to clarify their positions on Brexit seem to be coming from sections of media desperate to avert the public's attention away from the total shit show that is the government at the moment.

    If I were a Labour advisor right now I'd be telling them just to keep schtum/vague whilst the Conservatives continue to appear operate like a food fight at a 5 year olds party.
    Shot through the heart, and you’re to blame, you give love a bad name. Not to mention archery tuition.
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  • domforrdomforr Frets: 163
    Can't agree with that. Playing it safe isn't an option anymore. There needs to be leadership from somewhere and as you say it certainly isn't coming from the Tories. Being all things to all people isn't only weak it's also a dereliction of duty as leader of the opposition. 
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  • VimFuegoVimFuego Frets: 6256
    domforr said:
    Can't agree with that. Playing it safe isn't an option anymore. There needs to be leadership from somewhere and as you say it certainly isn't coming from the Tories. Being all things to all people isn't only weak it's also a dereliction of duty as leader of the opposition. 
    agreed, and it's one of the things that's annoying me about labour right now, this thing they're doing of sitting on the sidelines scoring cheap political points. This is fine normally, but we're facing the biggest peace time crisis since, fuck I dunno, the black death or something. It's time to step up.

    I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 32822
    As far as I'm aware Labour's position is fairly clear - they want the UK to remain in the single market, with conditions. This is not only possible, it's also the best option for both the UK and the EU.

    I do not think that we should now remain in the EU, even though I voted for that. The line has been crossed and we have to make the best of the situation we now find ourselves in. I do think we should stay as close to it as possible, consistent with not actually being in it.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16962
    VimFuego said:
    domforr said:
    Can't agree with that. Playing it safe isn't an option anymore. There needs to be leadership from somewhere and as you say it certainly isn't coming from the Tories. Being all things to all people isn't only weak it's also a dereliction of duty as leader of the opposition. 
    agreed, and it's one of the things that's annoying me about labour right now, this thing they're doing of sitting on the sidelines scoring cheap political points. This is fine normally, but we're facing the biggest peace time crisis since, fuck I dunno, the black death or something. It's time to step up.
    Chuka Umunna was on R4 this morning saying Labour policy is to remain in the Customs Union and Single Market.

    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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