Is Brexit collapsing? Should the UK remain?

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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16282
    Read the Times articles twice and cannot see any direct link between Banks, the Brexit vote and Russia proven. A greedy Brit talks to Russians about buying some goldmines. Banks revealed the story to the press in the first place .. he also briefed the CIA.

    The point of this story has been missed IMHO. Banks was a Tory donor who hated the EU and decided Cameron was a traitor so he gave UKIP £100K and that should have been the end of it. William Hague was asked what he thought about Tory donor Banks' defection and he replied that he hadn't heard of him. Banks went nuts and gave UKIP £1 million making the comment 'he knows who I am now' .. he then went on to fund the Leave.EU campaign to the tune of £8 million.

    The question we have to ask is whether it is right that a wealthy individual can fund a campaign supporting Brexit with very little oversight - it undermines democracy, especially with some of the tactics used on social media. It would be better if such campaigns were funded by the state with both sides having equal amounts of cash, air time and access to social media (not sure how you'd police that) etc.

    It shows how our democratic process can be manipulated by wealthy with an axe to grind or with much to gain.

    However, these no direct evidence Banks was assisted by Russia. I'd like to know more as there's a smoking gun around Banks, the Russian ambassador and Trump's team which used disruptive social media campaigns and lies and get into office.

    There's more to this story ...
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16282
    Whatever we do next as a country - continue with Brexit (hard or soft) or postpone/abandon it - it won't help heal the way politics is carried out these days nor change any of the reasons so many people were happy to support one thing or the other.

    We've been running for too many years on the basis that the winners in politics run roughshod over the losers. So when you get the chance to become a winner again, you don't care what was done to become the winner, you just care that you've won.

    And you stick it to the losers because they did it to you.

    Rinse and repeat....
    Er .. that doesn't stand up to scrutiny though does it. Blair beat Major and pretty much carried on with the basic Tory policies .. Cameron beat Brown and again not much changed except public expenditure was cut further, but Brown had started that process. And I don't think there are winners and losers when such a large percentage of the population doesn't vote. The state of UK finances means there's bugger all wiggle room. Corbyn has admitted there probably won't be enough cash to nationalise anything.

    Brexit is a one-off.
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16282
    excellent
    so now it's the Russians fault if Brexit causes mayhem
    all the leavers are off the hook


    How? Show me how any of the articles link Russia to Banks and his campaign? They don't.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11045
    Fretwired said:
    Read the Times articles twice and cannot see any direct link between Banks, the Brexit vote and Russia proven. A greedy Brit talks to Russians about buying some goldmines. Banks revealed the story to the press in the first place .. he also briefed the CIA.

    The point of this story has been missed IMHO. Banks was a Tory donor who hated the EU and decided Cameron was a traitor so he gave UKIP £100K and that should have been the end of it. William Hague was asked what he thought about Tory donor Banks' defection and he replied that he hadn't heard of him. Banks went nuts and gave UKIP £1 million making the comment 'he knows who I am now' .. he then went on to fund the Leave.EU campaign to the tune of £8 million.

    The question we have to ask is whether it is right that a wealthy individual can fund a campaign supporting Brexit with very little oversight - it undermines democracy, especially with some of the tactics used on social media. It would be better if such campaigns were funded by the state with both sides having equal amounts of cash, air time and access to social media (not sure how you'd police that) etc.

    It shows how our democratic process can be manipulated by wealthy with an axe to grind or with much to gain.

    However, these no direct evidence Banks was assisted by Russia. I'd like to know more as there's a smoking gun around Banks, the Russian ambassador and Trump's team which used disruptive social media campaigns and lies and get into office.

    There's more to this story ...

    There is no direct link and was never likely to be. Peter Jukes of the Observer got the emails on Thursday. Oakeshott and Banks got wind of this on Friday. Banks revealing the story and briefing the CIA came after Jukes got the emails. Ass covering to my mind. 

    The goldmines... I would refer you to Anne Applebaum's Twitter thread this morning. A lucrative deal that then, if successful, can be used for campaign finance, and LeaveEU have already been fingered for their campaign finances. So this links in with your bolded paragraphs, which I utterly agree with, as well as the final sentence. There is a lot more to come. 
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16282
    Fretwired said:
    Read the Times articles twice and cannot see any direct link between Banks, the Brexit vote and Russia proven. A greedy Brit talks to Russians about buying some goldmines. Banks revealed the story to the press in the first place .. he also briefed the CIA.

    The point of this story has been missed IMHO. Banks was a Tory donor who hated the EU and decided Cameron was a traitor so he gave UKIP £100K and that should have been the end of it. William Hague was asked what he thought about Tory donor Banks' defection and he replied that he hadn't heard of him. Banks went nuts and gave UKIP £1 million making the comment 'he knows who I am now' .. he then went on to fund the Leave.EU campaign to the tune of £8 million.

    The question we have to ask is whether it is right that a wealthy individual can fund a campaign supporting Brexit with very little oversight - it undermines democracy, especially with some of the tactics used on social media. It would be better if such campaigns were funded by the state with both sides having equal amounts of cash, air time and access to social media (not sure how you'd police that) etc.

    It shows how our democratic process can be manipulated by wealthy with an axe to grind or with much to gain.

    However, these no direct evidence Banks was assisted by Russia. I'd like to know more as there's a smoking gun around Banks, the Russian ambassador and Trump's team which used disruptive social media campaigns and lies and get into office.

    There's more to this story ...

    There is no direct link and was never likely to be. Peter Jukes of the Observer got the emails on Thursday. Oakeshott and Banks got wind of this on Friday. Banks revealing the story and briefing the CIA came after Jukes got the emails. Ass covering to my mind. 

    The goldmines... I would refer you to Anne Applebaum's Twitter thread this morning. A lucrative deal that then, if successful, can be used for campaign finance, and LeaveEU have already been fingered for their campaign finances. So this links in with your bolded paragraphs, which I utterly agree with, as well as the final sentence. There is a lot more to come. 
    Banks and co were wealthy so I don't think the mines would have provided finances - he'd have had to  pay for the mines with cash. More likely some quid-pro-quo arrangement .. Banks doesn't like the EU. He could be a useful ally for Putin.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11045
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16282
    I've read that before. If anyone had any cast iron proof they'd have published it. It's virtually impossible to launder dodgy money to fund political campaigns. I suspect Banks simply stuffed money in offshore accounts and other assets, or he has acted as a front for other backers who want to remain anonymous. Russian help could come in other ways - subverting social media, providing intelligence on what is going on, advice on tactics etc.

    I suspect Putin and co and interested in supporting popularism and anti-EU governments throughout Europe. Interesting to see the new government in Italy have asked that sanctions on Russia be lifted. I wonder why?
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11045
    Pretty much. He's a front man who is fairly easy to manipulate. 

    Italy want sanctions lifted, Trump wants Russia back in the G8. Remarkably friendly toward a nation that shot down a commercial airliner, murdered a chap in the UK, tried to murder two people in the UK etc etc. 
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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2243
    Not sure if this is much different from allegations Corbyn met Soviets. 
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16282
    quarky said:
    Not sure if this is much different from allegations Corbyn met Soviets. 
    Similar territory. Stephen Kinnock was on R4's Today programme demanding police investigate Banks which is fine so long as they look at everyone else that donated cash including George Soros, who has links with Russia, and Gina Miller whose anonymous backers mostly came from abroad.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11045
    edited June 11
    Fretwired said:
    quarky said:
    Not sure if this is much different from allegations Corbyn met Soviets. 
    Similar territory. Stephen Kinnock was on R4's Today programme demanding police investigate Banks which is fine so long as they look at everyone else that donated cash including George Soros, who has links with Russia, and Gina Miller whose anonymous backers mostly came from abroad.

    Banks - active during and up to the referendum. Miller and Soros - post-referendum. So there is a difference when it comes to electoral influence. Very hard to influence a referendum after it's been held. If you want to go down the Express route and complain that Miller got the courts involved re. Article 50 vote going to Parliament, then attempting to bypass Parliament was the skulduggery, not getting the courts involved. 

    The Corbyn spy story was flimsy and splashed across the usual newspapers regularly. Not quite the same reaction for this story. 

     


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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16282
    Fretwired said:
    quarky said:
    Not sure if this is much different from allegations Corbyn met Soviets. 
    Similar territory. Stephen Kinnock was on R4's Today programme demanding police investigate Banks which is fine so long as they look at everyone else that donated cash including George Soros, who has links with Russia, and Gina Miller whose anonymous backers mostly came from abroad.

    Banks - active during and up to the referendum. Miller and Soros - post-referendum. So there is a difference when it comes to electoral influence. Very hard to influence a referendum after it's been held. If you want to go down the Express route and complain that Miller got the courts involved re. Article 50 vote going to Parliament, then attempting to bypass Parliament was the skulduggery, not getting the courts involved. 

    The Corbyn spy story was flimsy and splashed across the usual newspapers regularly. Not quite the same reaction for this story. 

     


    Sorry, but its relevant. Two people not born in the UK using money raised outside the UK to affect UK politics. Gina Miller started a crowdfunding campaign to raise money to support MPs who wanted to remain in the EU during the 2017 election. She supported Sarah Olney in Richmond with cash and other services in return for her agreeing to back another referendum. It could be argued both are trying to subvert UK democracy for their own ends. Both Miller and Soros stand to lose money if Brexit goes ahead.

    From what I've read today Banks spent as much time briefing the UK intelligence community and the CIA on his Russian dealings. I have no problem with him being investigated, but looking at the list of donors there are equally dodgy people on both sides.

    I frankly don't think Russian cash was involved. As with the US election they have been proven to use social media to disrupt elections and influence voters. And Cameron wheeled out the great and the good from around the world with messages of doom and gloom. That went well.

    The damage was done by holding the referendum in the first place, having a simple 'yes/no' question to a complex issue and then (in Cameron's case) running the worst campaign in living memory. He should have sold the benefits of EU membership and challenged Boris more vigorously over the vague claims made on the side of that bus.

    May just needs to grow and pair and call the whole thing off.

    The whole issue over funding for politics needs looking at. The only way to keep it clean is to fund it from tax payers money.

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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11045

    You're arguing about something different to me, namely electoral influence versus political influence. Banks taking money from Russians that helps LeaveEU does influence the referendum result: Miller forming a lobby group after the event does not. Her activities would fall into the general lobbying outside of election time that goes on. The question of funding of lobby groups is one you and I have agreed on before. It's an area that should be clamped down upon and isn't. I would go further and also apply the rules to think tanks. The secrecy over the Legatum Institute is a case in point. 

    Gina Miller was born in British Guiana on 19 April 1965. Guiana didn't go independent until 1966. Would she therefore have been classed as a Citizen of the UK and Colonies? Born overseas is one thing but that doesn't preclude you from being British. 


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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16282

    You're arguing about something different to me, namely electoral influence versus political influence. Banks taking money from Russians that helps LeaveEU does influence the referendum result: Miller forming a lobby group after the event does not. Her activities would fall into the general lobbying outside of election time that goes on. The question of funding of lobby groups is one you and I have agreed on before. It's an area that should be clamped down upon and isn't. I would go further and also apply the rules to think tanks. The secrecy over the Legatum Institute is a case in point. 

    Gina Miller was born in British Guiana on 19 April 1965. Guiana didn't go independent until 1966. Would she therefore have been classed as a Citizen of the UK and Colonies? Born overseas is one thing but that doesn't preclude you from being British. 


    Are you saying that everyone born in British Guiana before 1966 is British? They are not you know. She grew up there after spending some time being educated in the UK. As far as I am aware she has dual nationality. My reason for mentioning it is her family are prominent politicians in Guiana. Can we be sure of her motives? She obviously sees her finance and investment company suffering post Brexit if it has no passporting rights. She has also challenged the Tory/DUP deal. In short she wants a change of government to stop Brexit.

    Show me the evidence Bank's has taken Russian money. The Times in anti-Brexit so if they had any evidence they'd have published it. If the police think its worthwhile then fine.

    However, check some of Millers backers - a wealthy Italian woman waived her anonymity and stated she backed Miller as she doesn't want the UK to leave the EU. Miller was also a Remain donor.

    Were the allegations made by BeLeave treasurer Shahmir Sanni that £625,000 was donated by Vote Leave to his independent pro-Brexit referendum campaign organisation and then channelled to a digital services firm with links to Cambridge Analytica ever investigated thoroughly? I'd have thought that more worthy of police attention.

    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • WhitecatWhitecat Frets: 1618
    edited June 11
    Fretwired said:
    Show me the evidence Bank's has taken Russian money. The Times in anti-Brexit so if they had any evidence they'd have published it. If the police think its worthwhile then fine.

    The Sunday Times, where this was published, is pro-Brexit. The days-of-the-weekly variant is anti-Brexit. The argument could be made that they softened it. But I think there's more detail yet to come.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11045
     Firstly, I worded it as a question hence the question mark. As she was born in British Guiana before the 1966 independence, I was unsure as to her actual status at birth. 

    On Banks and money, I have worded that poorly. I should have written "If Banks took money from Russians for LeaveEu then that does influence the election result" in the comparison to Miller's lobbying post-referendum. That is my mistake. 

    Miller and her backers: I'm certainly no Miller acolyte. Her campaigning to get the Parliamentary vote was right. Severl other positions put her on the strident and daft platform. 

    Shahmir Sanni is the most interesting part of this whole thing. Whereas most other participants, from Nix to Banks to Miller to even Christopher Wylie, all seem to like the limelight, he's a lot quieter. His evidence is compelling. Whether the police have any ability to investigate properly and correctly, I have doubts. We don't have a Robert Mueller in this country, much to our detriment. 
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16282
    Whitecat said:
    Fretwired said:
    Show me the evidence Bank's has taken Russian money. The Times in anti-Brexit so if they had any evidence they'd have published it. If the police think its worthwhile then fine.

    The Sunday Times, where this was published, is pro-Brexit. The days-of-the-weekly variant is anti-Brexit. The argument could be made that they softened it. But I think there's more detail yet to come.
    I don't think there is ... in the UK you're innocent until proven guilty. At this stage there's not even a smoking gun. He had meetings to discuss buying gold mines, but he didn't buy them. If the Russians wanted to launder some dirty money his way it would have been done via a businessman not the UK ambassador who is watched 24/7 by MI5.

    The police don't seem to be that interested ... the referendum was lost because Cameron ran a poor campaign. People can spot FUD a mile away .. Cameron never addressed some of the basic issues and concerns people had. He just needed another 2 percent of the vote.

    Even when the result was announced Cameron could have said it was close .. I've changed my mind we're staying. Cameron was just a spineless toff who was out of his depth.

    May should call Brexit off.
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  • WhitecatWhitecat Frets: 1618
    Fretwired said:
    Whitecat said:
    Fretwired said:
    Show me the evidence Bank's has taken Russian money. The Times in anti-Brexit so if they had any evidence they'd have published it. If the police think its worthwhile then fine.

    The Sunday Times, where this was published, is pro-Brexit. The days-of-the-weekly variant is anti-Brexit. The argument could be made that they softened it. But I think there's more detail yet to come.
    I don't think there is ... in the UK you're innocent until proven guilty. At this stage there's not even a smoking gun. He had meetings to discuss buying gold mines, but he didn't buy them. If the Russians wanted to launder some dirty money his way it would have been done via a businessman not the UK ambassador who is watched 24/7 by MI5.

    The police don't seem to be that interested ... the referendum was lost because Cameron ran a poor campaign. People can spot FUD a mile away .. Cameron never addressed some of the basic issues and concerns people had. He just needed another 2 percent of the vote.

    Even when the result was announced Cameron could have said it was close .. I've changed my mind we're staying. Cameron was just a spineless toff who was out of his depth.

    May should call Brexit off.
    The way modern investigative journalism works though indicates to me that we will hear more yet, esp with something that explosive.

    Look at Carole Cadwalladr's work on Cambridge Analytica for the Guardian... that's been strung out for weeks/months even. New info coming to light all the time. 

    Rarely are these things a one-off - they want to sell lots of papers off the back of them

    Anyway, it won't have any legal effect on the referendum result, but with any luck some people will face penalties and give us everyone a wake-up to to overhaul the system in the future so it can't happen again.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11045
    Well, there is more detail to come. That is an undeniable fact. Tomorrow at 1030 in fact. 

    https://calendar.parliament.uk/calendar/Commons/Select-Committees/2018/6/12/Daily

    And here's me with the day off tomorrow... 
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • WhitecatWhitecat Frets: 1618
    Well, there is more detail to come. That is an undeniable fact. Tomorrow at 1030 in fact. 

    https://calendar.parliament.uk/calendar/Commons/Select-Committees/2018/6/12/Daily

    And here's me with the day off tomorrow... 
    Heh. Fingers crossed he shows up. :)
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11045

    If he doesn't, I'll entertain myself be re-reading the latest blog from Dominic Cummings. 

    https://dominiccummings.com/2018/06/11/on-the-referendum-27-banks-russia-conspiracies-and-vote-leave/
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16282
    Well, there is more detail to come. That is an undeniable fact. Tomorrow at 1030 in fact. 

    https://calendar.parliament.uk/calendar/Commons/Select-Committees/2018/6/12/Daily

    And here's me with the day off tomorrow... 
    Banks was interviewed this morning and told the press what he was going to say. He claims it's a stitch up and fake news. He's considering legal action. There's an interview with him on the Telegraph site as well.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11045
    Fretwired said:
    Banks was interviewed this morning and told the press what he was going to say. He claims it's a stitch up and fake news. He's considering legal action. There's an interview with him on the Telegraph site as well.

    Which is no surprise to anyone. So I shall wait to see what comes out of the DCMS Select Committee discussion tomorrow. 
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16282
    Fretwired said:
    Banks was interviewed this morning and told the press what he was going to say. He claims it's a stitch up and fake news. He's considering legal action. There's an interview with him on the Telegraph site as well.

    Which is no surprise to anyone. So I shall wait to see what comes out of the DCMS Select Committee discussion tomorrow. 
    I can tell you that in advance. Nowt.

    Banks is clever .. this is the establishment going through the motions.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11045
    edited June 11
    Then if Mystic Fret is mystic, I shall raise a mystic glass to you and toast your mysticism. 

    Banks and Wigmore will be on Farage's LBC show tonight. Welcome to the new establishment. 

    Banks and Wigmore also dropped out of a Newsnight interview tonight. 

    R4Today invited Carole Cadwalladr on this morning to discuss it with Oakeshott, CC wanted to discuss the story, and R4 promptly dropped it. 
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11045
    The takedown of the Sun front page is marvellous. Well worth going through the entire thread. If the Shard really does represent the best of British and not just included because it's opposite News UK then God help us...




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  • Axe_meisterAxe_meister Frets: 2152
    So the Sun is asking.
    Vote for what is best for Britain or what is best for those voters who want to leave?



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