Is Brexit collapsing? Should the UK remain?

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  • domforrdomforr Frets: 163
    VimFuego said:
    domforr said:
    Can't agree with that. Playing it safe isn't an option anymore. There needs to be leadership from somewhere and as you say it certainly isn't coming from the Tories. Being all things to all people isn't only weak it's also a dereliction of duty as leader of the opposition. 
    agreed, and it's one of the things that's annoying me about labour right now, this thing they're doing of sitting on the sidelines scoring cheap political points. This is fine normally, but we're facing the biggest peace time crisis since, fuck I dunno, the black death or something. It's time to step up.
    It's just blatant opportunism and as you say the country needs and expects more from its politicians in a time of crisis. It may get them into power but I don't think history will look too kindly on the Labour leadership during this period.
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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 8513
    domforr said:
    It's just blatant opportunism and as you say the country needs and expects more from its politicians in a time of crisis
    Really? My expectations must be a lot lower than yours. :)
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  • domforrdomforr Frets: 163
    Fair point :) Hard to remember an era where politicians in general have been so reviled, which is not generally a sign of a healthy and functioning democracy.  
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  • Jock68Jock68 Frets: 155

    Overthrowing a Democratic Vote will not be good for this country.  Spending some time looking at the EU will easily change you into a Brexiteer.

    • Employees of the EU only pay 12% Income Tax and get a Final Salary Pension.. and yes it is in deficit
    • There are 5 Presidents in the EU.. over the top
    • Laws are not created by MEPs, they are created by the EU Council and presented to be voted on.  MEP cannot introduce new Laws or regulations, all they do is press a button.
    • You do not elect the EU Council and you cannot sack them, where is the democracy
    • There are 2 Parliaments, they pack up Brussels very month for a week and move to France Strasbourg ( Costs 100s £millions) vote and move back
    • EU is a Protectionist, Racists and Xenophobic organisation.. as are Remainers.  They want people from outside of white Europe to be controlled entry into the UK but allow free access to the UK for the predominantly white EU.
    • We buy 40% of good from inside the EU because if we but from Outside we have to add Tariffs.  So Oranges from Florida are cheaper that Oranges from Spain, but if we buy from Florida we must add 10% Tarif on top
    • Germany is one of the Largest Coffee producer in the World? ( but they do not grow coffee beans) EU puts 10% Tarif on Coffee Granules coming into the EU but no Tariff on Coffee beans.  Why not let Africa make the coffee and sell it to us with Tariffs, this will create Jobs and let us stop sending Aid
    • Over the next 30 years 80% of growth will come from outside of the EU, US China, India, Russia Asia and Europe has no trade deal with any of them.
    • WTO Tariffs are the Maximum that the importing nation can add to goods being imported, as an independent nation we can decide if we want to put any tariffs on any imports.
    • EU Accounts, around €4 Billion was unaccounted for in recent accounts…. That is not well run
    • In order to make the EU work you must have a single Currency and single Financial budgetary control and in the end Fiscal union.
    Wanting to be a citizen a of a free nation where your vote really does count.............. makes sense.
    Jock
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16949
    Jock68 said:

    Overthrowing a Democratic Vote will not be good for this country.  Spending some time looking at the EU will easily change you into a Brexiteer.

    • Employees of the EU only pay 12% Income Tax and get a Final Salary Pension.. and yes it is in deficit
    • There are 5 Presidents in the EU.. over the top
    • Laws are not created by MEPs, they are created by the EU Council and presented to be voted on.  MEP cannot introduce new Laws or regulations, all they do is press a button.
    • You do not elect the EU Council and you cannot sack them, where is the democracy
    • There are 2 Parliaments, they pack up Brussels very month for a week and move to France Strasbourg ( Costs 100s £millions) vote and move back
    • EU is a Protectionist, Racists and Xenophobic organisation.. as are Remainers.  They want people from outside of white Europe to be controlled entry into the UK but allow free access to the UK for the predominantly white EU.
    • We buy 40% of good from inside the EU because if we but from Outside we have to add Tariffs.  So Oranges from Florida are cheaper that Oranges from Spain, but if we buy from Florida we must add 10% Tarif on top
    • Germany is one of the Largest Coffee producer in the World? ( but they do not grow coffee beans) EU puts 10% Tarif on Coffee Granules coming into the EU but no Tariff on Coffee beans.  Why not let Africa make the coffee and sell it to us with Tariffs, this will create Jobs and let us stop sending Aid
    • Over the next 30 years 80% of growth will come from outside of the EU, US China, India, Russia Asia and Europe has no trade deal with any of them.
    • WTO Tariffs are the Maximum that the importing nation can add to goods being imported, as an independent nation we can decide if we want to put any tariffs on any imports.
    • EU Accounts, around €4 Billion was unaccounted for in recent accounts…. That is not well run
    • In order to make the EU work you must have a single Currency and single Financial budgetary control and in the end Fiscal union.
    Wanting to be a citizen a of a free nation where your vote really does count.............. makes sense.
    What you have there is a list of the reasons I voted for Brexit .. :-)

    The two parliaments is interesting because nobody wants Strasbourg except the French who have vetoed attempts to scrap it.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • domforrdomforr Frets: 163
    edited February 23
    What a load of absolute tripe:

    'EU is a Protectionist, Racists and Xenophobic organisation.. as are Remainers.'

    I've heard a lot of crazed illogical arguments for Brexit but this one takes first prize. 

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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11465
    Jock68 said:
    Overthrowing a Democratic Vote will not be good for this country.  Spending some time looking at the EU will easily change you into a Brexiteer.
    • EU is a Protectionist, Racists and Xenophobic organisation.. as are Remainers.  They want people from outside of white Europe to be controlled entry into the UK but allow free access to the UK for the predominantly white EU.

    Matron, rush me the tinfoil hat and the reverse enema equipment please. 
    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16949
    Jock68 said:
    Overthrowing a Democratic Vote will not be good for this country.  Spending some time looking at the EU will easily change you into a Brexiteer.
    • EU is a Protectionist, Racists and Xenophobic organisation.. as are Remainers.  They want people from outside of white Europe to be controlled entry into the UK but allow free access to the UK for the predominantly white EU.

    Matron, rush me the tinfoil hat and the reverse enema equipment please. 
    I missed that (didn't you say I don't read things) .. ;-)
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11465
    Fretwired said:
    Matron, rush me the tinfoil hat and the reverse enema equipment please. 
    I missed that (didn't you say I don't read things) .. ;-)
    :D Matron, we might have another patient... 
    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 2998
    domforr said:
    What a load of absolute tripe:

    'EU is a Protectionist, Racists and Xenophobic organisation.. as are Remainers.'

    I've heard a lot of crazed illogical arguments for Brexit but this one takes first prize. 

    that comment is a bit odd...
    I'm a remainer... my close family are from 6 different countries [3 of which are outside of Europe] and out of us all at least 3/4 of them are immigrants..
    so it'd be a bit weird if I were a racist xenophobe..
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • seany65seany65 Frets: 237
    Every word out of the mouths of the EU and remainers is about how the Brtish Govt are incometant and that Breixt will be a disaster, and because there's almost no-one arguing against those statements, many people believe them.

    They are just attempts at preventing Brexit.
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  • exocetexocet Frets: 557
    seany65 said:
    Every word out of the mouths of the EU and remainers is about how the Brtish Govt are incometant and that Breixt will be a disaster, and because there's almost no-one arguing against those statements, many people believe them.

    They are just attempts at preventing Brexit.
    Perhaps the Brexit protagonists should come up with a vision that is more than just "cheaper clothing, footwear and food"?
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11465
    seany65 said:
    Every word out of the mouths of the EU and remainers is about how the Brtish Govt are incometant and that Breixt will be a disaster, and because there's almost no-one arguing against those statements, many people believe them.

    They are just attempts at preventing Brexit.
    You don't half talk shite. 
    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • VimFuegoVimFuego Frets: 6256
    I note that young seany does this, pops in with some logical fallacy then skulks off without actually engaging. I'd say he's trolling. 

    I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.

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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11465
    It looks even more daft when it's been the Leave camp this week who have really been piling the pressure onto the PM and Government with the letter delivered midweek

    As much as I prefer to talk and discuss points, there are times when there is no other way to respond to total nonsense. 
    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16949
    seany65 said:
    Every word out of the mouths of the EU and remainers is about how the Brtish Govt are incometant and that Breixt will be a disaster, and because there's almost no-one arguing against those statements, many people believe them.

    They are just attempts at preventing Brexit.
    Serious question. Do you think Theresa May and co are competent? We're in 2018 and the EU is still asking 'What kind of Brexit do you want?" May and co seem to have an 'out for lunch' sign outside number 10 since late 2016. They've only just had a big brainstorming meeting  to agree a way forward. To be fair I voted for Brexit, so I'm not a remainer, but I think our government are grossly incompetent.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • DominicDominic Frets: 3694
    I don't think May and co are the right people for a job we shouldn't be doing in the first place but aside from that it was always going to be a thankless task ........nobody will do it any better because the EU are looking to screw us from the very start and there is an element of pure vindictive advocacy.
     It's a negotiation not a declaration and I suspect that there is a lot of feeling out and sussing going on in the background - we are trying to negotiate an escape and ultimately they are the Gaolers - to get out quickly we would have to end up begging for the keys which isn't the best negotiating position -to some degree we are the hostages and they aren't forthcoming with the Pizzas.
     In the short term it's more of a damage limitation exercise no matter who attempts to tackle it.
    It's not a case of get on with it either ;there are so many ramifications and considerations that have to be worked on .....it's a knot that has been tied and re-tied for 40 years and it will take a long time and patience to unpick it rather than simply cut the string.
    Rome wasn't built in a day.........and Bruxelles won't be escaped in a day for better or worse.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 32796
    Dominic said:
    I don't think May and co are the right people for a job we shouldn't be doing in the first place but aside from that it was always going to be a thankless task ........nobody will do it any better because the EU are looking to screw us from the very start and there is an element of pure vindictive advocacy.
    I agree up to a point, although that's really the likes of Juncker and Tusk rather than the ones who have the real power. Merkel and Macron need a deal which benefits both sides.

    But I think that Labour would have a much better chance of getting a good deal for no other reason than they are not the lot who caused the mess - even ignoring the other reasons I think they would.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • NiteflyNitefly Frets: 2121
    It would have been a better idea to set up a cross-party Parliamentary team - these negotiations are too big and too important to let one party direct them.  We could certainly have used the expertise of people like Keir Starmer..

    As it is, it leaves an open goal for opposition parties to say later "We wouldn't have done that!", with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight.

    Grown most uncommonly fat!
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  • domforrdomforr Frets: 163
    Fretwired said:
    seany65 said:
    Every word out of the mouths of the EU and remainers is about how the Brtish Govt are incometant and that Breixt will be a disaster, and because there's almost no-one arguing against those statements, many people believe them.

    They are just attempts at preventing Brexit.
    Serious question. Do you think Theresa May and co are competent? We're in 2018 and the EU is still asking 'What kind of Brexit do you want?" May and co seem to have an 'out for lunch' sign outside number 10 since late 2016. They've only just had a big brainstorming meeting  to agree a way forward. To be fair I voted for Brexit, so I'm not a remainer, but I think our government are grossly incompetent.
    For me this is the most incompetent British govt of my lifetime. Why is it so hard for them to understand that there is no cherry picking? The EU have been clear on this from day 1 - if you want access to the single market you have to accept certain conditions. So either you don't accept them and you have limited access or you do accept them and you have full access. It beggars belief that the UK govt is still living in a fantasy world after nearly 2 years. Pathetic really. 
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  • I disagree. The EU says "no cherry-picking", and insists that "free movement of people" is essential to a free market.
    1. They never justified the assertion about free movement
    2. They've not-so-subtly morphed "free movement of labour" into "free movement of people".
    3. Why not, pray, "cherry-pick", if we're paying for it?

    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • domforrdomforr Frets: 163
    edited February 24
    It's very simple. There are rules to being a member of the club and if you don't adhere you don't get the benefits. Life is tough I'm afraid and we can't always have what we want, but the same rules apply to all countries. Britain as ever seems to think it can play by its own rules and everyone else will just swallow it. This is a lesson in humility and it's going to be a painful one, although much needed in my humble opinion.
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  • @domforr OK, I don't like their 'rules', I want out. Simples!
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • exocetexocet Frets: 557
    edited February 24
    @domforr OK, I don't like their 'rules', I want out. Simples!
    So "Canada" is all we can expect.

    It's a shame that our negotiating team appear to want more than this because they're not going to get it. 


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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 4209
    domforr said:
    It's very simple. There are rules to being a member of the club and if you don't adhere you don't get the benefits. Life is tough I'm afraid and we can't always have what we want, but the same rules apply to all countries. Britain as ever seems to think it can play by its own rules and everyone else will just swallow it. This is a lesson in humility and it's going to be a painful one, although much needed in my humble opinion.
    the same rules do not always apply to all countries, 
    read up on the FATCA laws and tell me what other country would get away with that
    I'm sure we pulled stunts like that 150 years ago when we felt like it

    In the case of the EU, there are 2 other powerful wealthy countries at the table, so we can't throw our weight about too much, but don't forget that we pay 20% of the entire net budget of the EU, so there are a lot of poor EU states who might value our cash more than the EU principles (since they are being massively rebuilt using our cash, e.g. Hungary's public spending is 80% funded by money from the EU, so that means the UK is paying 16% of current public spending in Hungary). I wouldn't hold my breath though
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  • actually, it's not a "club" either. there is no reason to swallow ALL its rules or none at all. especially, as noted by ToneControl, we're paying for it!

    further, nobody has yet justified the "freedom of movement" bit - even in the thread about it, they just blindly say that it's essential for a trade agreement. It isn't, FFS!
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • domforrdomforr Frets: 163
    Agreed you don't have to abide by all of its rules, but then you don't get all of the benefits. It really isn't a tough concept to grasp. Regarding free movement - I quote from the EU site: Freedom of movement for workers is one of the founding principles of the EU.

    So again, if you want a trade deal, you either accept this principle and this opens certain doors, or you don't and this limits your access. 

    Basically it boils down to this - there is no cake and eat it deal for the UK or anyone else. You either get a Norway style deal, or a Canada style deal or you remain part of the EU and have the benefits you currently have.

    There is no deal available where you leave and still retain all of the benefits. This is what the government (and Labour to a degree) have been trying to do and it is pure fantasy. Unfortunately May and the more moderate members of the cabinet lack the moral courage to actually tell the truth to the UK public about what is available and so the fantasy continues.
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  • VimFuegoVimFuego Frets: 6256
    I guess it boils down to who a trade deal is more important. If it's the EU, they will agree to our terms, if it's us, then we'll have to agree with theirs. 

    I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.

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  • domforr said:
    Freedom of movement for workers is one of the founding principles of the EU.
    Precisely. If you're a worker, you've got a job, and you're welcome to come and do the job.

    If you haven't got a job, get one first ... or get lost!
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • as an aside ... nobody, but nobody, not the EU, nor them that argue in favour of it, has JUSTIFIED that "freedom of movement" idea. It's ALWAYS a blank THAT'S THE WAY IT IS... nobody provides an explanation for WHY it has to be that way. It's just a mantra. And as such I will always question it, and reject the argument of anyone who says THATS THE WAY IT IS.
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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