Is Brexit collapsing? Should the UK remain?

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  • marantz1300marantz1300 Frets: 1470
    edited June 12

    They are asking the same as they always do.

    Vote for what the Sun tells you to.

    Its like a printed zombie drug. I'm sure there's something in the ink.

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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15348
    Oh dear .. justice minister and staunch remainer Philip Lee has resigned as he doesn't believe in May or the Brexit she's delivering. It's rumoured more resignations are to follow. I guess these MPs will be voting against the government's Brexit bill.

    How long can May survive?


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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15348
    Four more ministers are prepared to quit over Brexit after Phillip Lee's "warning shot" resignation, the Daily Telegraph has learned.

    May's in crisis talks ...

    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10684
    Been reading some of the tweets from Brexit Tories to Lee today. Jade Marsden, deputy chair of the Merseyside Conservatives, has thus far been the most odious. 

    https://twitter.com/j_l_marsden

    Laughable to think that this is supposed to be the party of liberty, freedom, and free speech. If this is how they treat one of their own party members, one wonders what they'd do to the 50%+ of the country who didn't vote blue. 

    John Major memorably described three of his own Cabinet as bastards. Right now I say this scene from The Thick of It is best representative of the party.



    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10684
    What a fun day... 

    I didn't get into Parliament. Public gallery queue was rather too large for the Banks jamboree. Telly instead. Grandstanding was expected. Lots of details that didn't gel with previous interviews. His threats of legal action now seem rather hollow given that he's basically corroborated the Observer story. Plenty of unanswered questions in there so this will run for some time. 

    So Parliament.

    EU - Government won, concessions promised but not actually made to the rebellious lot. 

    The real losers today: the regions and Labour. 

    http://www.thenational.scot/news/16285985.Westminster_votes_through_power_grab_on_Scotland_in_15_minutes/

    Labour abstentions did not go down well in the regions. That Scottish Labour revival looks very fucking unlikely. 
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10684
    edited June 13
    Fretwired said:
    Banks and co were wealthy so I don't think the mines would have provided finances - he'd have had to  pay for the mines with cash. More likely some quid-pro-quo arrangement .. Banks doesn't like the EU. He could be a useful ally for Putin.

    ARTE did a news article on LeaveEU in Bristol on 24 Jan 2016. 

    Liz Bilney confirms that they did use employees on the Leave.eu campaign. This is something Banks has denied. 

    The intriguing element is the campaign chart at 2:06. The pros of Leaving are in dark pink: the pros of Remaining are in green. 

    The final category is Military. 

    "moral obligation ie. anti Russia". That's rather pointed. So if Leave.EU feel Remain are anti-Russia, does that make Leave.EU "pro Russia"? 

    https://i.imgur.com/Uab4yf2.png



    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15348
    edited June 13
    Banks probably is pro-Russia as he has many friends like Abramovich and seemed quite happy to discuss buying Russian gold mines. That's a million miles away from taking Russian cash ... there's not even a smoking gun on that issue.

    And who are we to judge Russia. The UK/US action in Iraq has been devastating - those, like George Galloway, who claim the US/UK are mass murders have a point. We created ISIS and destabilised the Middle East.

    And given Trump's in power I'd be equally worried about people who are pro-American. I take it it's OK to accept money from US companies.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • NiteflyNitefly Frets: 1988
    Meanwhile, Wetherspoons gets on with it!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44465657

    Grown most uncommonly fat!
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10684
    edited June 13
    Fretwired said:
    Banks probably is pro-Russia as he has many friends like Abramovich and seemed quite happy to discuss buying Russian gold mines. That's a million miles away from taking Russian cash ... there's not even a smoking gun on that issue.

    And who are we to judge Russia. The UK/US action in Iraq has been devastating - those, like George Galloway, who claim the US/UK are mass murders have a point. We created ISIS and destabilised the Middle East.

    And given Trump's in power I'd be equally worried about people who are pro-American. I take it it's OK to accept money from US companies.

    No, don't take it. It's not about the subject I'm focusing on. You and I agree on funding models being dreadful at the moment and have done for years (I wrote an essay on taxpayer funded campaigns at uni 20 years ago). Neither am I judging the UK and the US as I've done that countless times in this forum over the years. You know I place Blair at the top of the shit list, a lofty position even higher than your dislike of Cameron. 

    I'm trying to understand why anti-Russia would appear on such a relatively undetailed chart and so am going through LeaveEU leaflets to see if Russia comes up on those. 

    It is curious that the NHS doesn't feature there as a consideration in LeaveEU's chart assessment of either side's position in January 2016 yet six weeks later were releasing leaflets proclaiming to love the NHS

    Feb leaflets: talks of mentioning hospitals. 

    http://martinbrookes.blogspot.com/2016/02/its-time-to-leave-eu-leaflet.html


    But really it's time to leave this subject. Too much time, not enough life. 
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15348
    Fretwired said:
    Banks probably is pro-Russia as he has many friends like Abramovich and seemed quite happy to discuss buying Russian gold mines. That's a million miles away from taking Russian cash ... there's not even a smoking gun on that issue.

    And who are we to judge Russia. The UK/US action in Iraq has been devastating - those, like George Galloway, who claim the US/UK are mass murders have a point. We created ISIS and destabilised the Middle East.

    And given Trump's in power I'd be equally worried about people who are pro-American. I take it it's OK to accept money from US companies.

    No, don't take it. It's not about the subject I'm focusing on. You and I agree on funding models being dreadful at the moment and have done for years (I wrote an essay on taxpayer funded campaigns at uni 20 years ago). Neither am I judging the UK and the US as I've done that countless times in this forum over the years. You know I place Blair at the top of the shit list, a lofty position even higher than your dislike of Cameron. 

    I'm trying to understand why anti-Russia would appear on such a relatively undetailed chart and so am going through LeaveEU leaflets to see if Russia comes up on those. 

    It is curious that the NHS doesn't feature there as a consideration in LeaveEU's chart assessment of either side's position in January 2016 yet six weeks later were releasing leaflets proclaiming to love the NHS

    Feb leaflets: talks of mentioning hospitals. 

    http://martinbrookes.blogspot.com/2016/02/its-time-to-leave-eu-leaflet.html




    But all we can see s part of a larger piece of paper - we don't know what else was on it. How do we know that there weren't more pieces of paper on which the NHS featured? And the 'anti-Russia' comment could be construed as the EU's position and an excuse to create an EU military.

    I had a briefing from UK MEP and ex-grenadier guards officer Geoffrey Van Orden at the EU parliament in Brussels in which he stated plans were advanced for an EU fighting force. He was against it as we already have NATO.

    This has all the makings of fake news and smear. The same strategy used on Corbyn.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10684
    Fretwired said:
    But all we can see s part of a larger piece of paper - we don't know what else was on it. How do we know that there weren't more pieces of paper on which the NHS featured? And the 'anti-Russia' comment could be construed as the EU's position and an excuse to create an EU military.

    I had a briefing from UK MEP and ex-grenadier guards officer Geoffrey Van Orden at the EU parliament in Brussels in which he stated plans were advanced for an EU fighting force. He was against it as we already have NATO.

    This has all the makings of fake news and smear. The same strategy used on Corbyn.

    Because the larger shot across the office around 1:47 shows the chart on the wall next to a map and a lack of any other charts around it. The chart is held up with Blu Tack so doesn't flip over to reveal more points. 

    Totally agree on the EU force and Mr Van Orden's views. NATO should be primary. 

    I don't think this is entirely smear when there is a lot that demands clarification. But we differ on that. It's certainly not in the league of Piggate which was evidence-free. 
     

    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15348
    Fretwired said:
    But all we can see s part of a larger piece of paper - we don't know what else was on it. How do we know that there weren't more pieces of paper on which the NHS featured? And the 'anti-Russia' comment could be construed as the EU's position and an excuse to create an EU military.

    I had a briefing from UK MEP and ex-grenadier guards officer Geoffrey Van Orden at the EU parliament in Brussels in which he stated plans were advanced for an EU fighting force. He was against it as we already have NATO.

    This has all the makings of fake news and smear. The same strategy used on Corbyn.

    Because the larger shot across the office around 1:47 shows the chart on the wall next to a map and a lack of any other charts around it. The chart is held up with Blu Tack so doesn't flip over to reveal more points. 

    Totally agree on the EU force and Mr Van Orden's views. NATO should be primary. 

    I don't think this is entirely smear when there is a lot that demands clarification. But we differ on that. It's certainly not in the league of Piggate which was evidence-free. 
     

    Oakeshott basically said piggate was made up when she was put on the spot in a TV interview a year or so back.

    Banks owned the MP's yesterday .. they were pathetic. The police don't seem that interested and the Sunday Times haven't got any evidence. As I said before if Banks were taking money surely he'd have been more careful. The fact he met the Russian ambassador was in his book ...

    I don't like Banks and I'm happy to be proved wrong, but at the moment this is hardly Watergate and the Sunday Times seem to be clutching at straws.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10684
    The ST article was never meant to do anything other than loosely clutch at straws. Reputation management, damage control, call it what you may. Get the first denial in before the other people can publish. 

    He said he had one meeting in his book. That wasn't the truth. Not some definitive piece of evidence alluding to criminal behaviour but there appears to be a pattern of snipping lies that you can escape from. 

    The DCMS Select Committee were out of their depth. As said previously, we don't have a Mueller in this country and it is to our detriment. 
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10684
    And this on the fighting force:

    http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-4121_en.htm

    School run time now so I'll go through it later. 
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15348
    And this on the fighting force:

    http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-4121_en.htm

    School run time now so I'll go through it later. 
    Interesting.

    Van Orden made an interesting point. The EU wants a foreign minister and wants to be able to challenge the US. To do that they will need to back that up with an EU military force, economic clout and a currency. You could argue the EU has economic clout and a currency so its only the military they need to be firmly on the road to an EU state.

    I recall an interesting novel written i the 70s which ended up with a war between the USA and Europe - the USA attacked the UK with a pre-emptive strike and invaded. Maybe the world will change and the US will become the world's bogeyman .. :-)
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15348


    The DCMS Select Committee were out of their depth. As said previously, we don't have a Mueller in this country and it is to our detriment. 
    Spot on .. it was embarrassing to watch ...
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10684
    Fretwired said:
    Interesting.

    Van Orden made an interesting point. The EU wants a foreign minister and wants to be able to challenge the US. To do that they will need to back that up with an EU military force, economic clout and a currency. You could argue the EU has economic clout and a currency so its only the military they need to be firmly on the road to an EU state.

    I recall an interesting novel written i the 70s which ended up with a war between the USA and Europe - the USA attacked the UK with a pre-emptive strike and invaded. Maybe the world will change and the US will become the world's bogeyman .. :-)

    There is a lot of posturing going on and sides being taken. The fears of an EU state military have gone on for years but would still be smaller than India and China in terms of population size and likely to be smaller than China in terms of size of army

    Why mention India? Because they don't tend to get much mention in the media over here but there's a lot going on. India felt stung by the first round of US imposed tariffs and will impose their own tariffs on some US imports in a week's time if there are no moves. This then has implication for CAATSA (the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countering_America's_Adversaries_Through_Sanctions_Act

    Ostensibly created to slap the bottoms of Iran, North Korea, and Russia, Trump had misgivings when signing it into law, and obviously now we are in the position where two of those countries are on the US-approved list. India want to trade with Iran and Russia without any punishment but the Democrats want the Act to apply. Washington doesn't despite the main Indian purchase for Russia to be under the spot: S-400 air defence missile systems. 

    https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/view-will-22-add-up-to-s-400s/articleshow/64375215.cms

    https://www.firstpost.com/world/indias-missile-deal-with-russia-trade-with-iran-despite-us-sanctions-may-create-unease-in-new-delhi-washington-ties-4486545.html

    So if Washington gets friendly with North Korea and Russia come back to the G8, it makes CAATSA look pointless and any application of financial punishment to the like of India would be farcical. An India-Russia-Iran agreement would certainly look powerful on the world stage. 

    So with China bloody huge on itself, Russia potentially blowing the horn again, India as a slight loose cannon, Iran being Iran, and the possibility of reduced American spending and involvement in NATO coupled with Britain leaving the EU, it actually makes sense for the EU to consider developing their own force. 

    As for invading novels... try this :)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Swoop!


    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10684
    From last year:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/02/arron-banks-interview-brexit-ukip-far-right-trump-putin-russia

    "To be clear, the Electoral Commission rules aren’t guidelines for the tombola at the village fete. He’s talking about UK electoral law. Electoral law that Damian Tambini, director of the media policy project at the LSE, says isn’t fit for purpose. Tambini met with the regulators and other parties and they’ve joined forces this week to call for a parliamentary commission to urgently review it.

    Modern online campaigning has fundamentally changed everything, Tambini tells me. “And the existing framework is utterly weak and helpless.” The cost of building databases, money poured into third-party campaigns, offshore spending – these were either largely or totally unregulated. There is no longer any way, with current legislation, of guaranteeing a free and fair election.

    Or as Banks puts it: “We were just cleverer than the regulators and the politicians. Of course we were.”

    He didn’t break the law, he says. He “pushed the boundary of everything, right to the edge. It was war.” And later: “You’re looking for a smoking gun but there’s a smoking gun on every table! And no one cares. No one cares!”


    He's right. Banks is not an idiot. Our system of democracy is not up to scratch. Much like our tax laws, they are archaic and fall apart in the face of modern technology. 

    We've all seen the conspiracy theories about the "mainstream media". In my view, this is now a redundant term. We've seen a referendum, US election, and our general election throw up results that show the power of the online world. When that online world has more power than the MSM, then we have a new mainstream media going against traditional mainstream media. 

    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10684
    edited June 13
    Andrew Lilico has a reputation on Twitter for being a bit... odd. Pro-Brexit which isn't the reason for his oddness in itself. It's certain ideological positions and denials of evidence that are odd. He may well have capped it off with this piece on CapX:

    https://capx.co/another-nail-in-the-coffin-for-a-meaningful-brexit/


    And now a personal rant. 

    @Fretwired ;;;
    Earlier this afternoon I started typing a reply back about Oakeshott's lies and her consistent shithouse record, culminating in a bit of a rant about how she's got her ST defence article in and now she'll sit back and wait for the next fucking call to go on Question Time and talk shit. I deleted it before posting as it was verging on the vengeful and then fucked off out to pick up the kids, instead choosing to vent on some of the bastard noisy high school brats on there. 

    Now what do I read? 

    https://twitter.com/bbcquestiontime/status/1006950207051976706

    Jesus fucking ballsing Christ. 

    For years I have defended the BBC. It did serve a purpose and it had some integrity. Now it's a load of shit. There is no challenging of views in interviews, the rigid x versus y dichotomy is tedious, and the like of Question Time is utterly hopeless. Richard Madeley last week, now a thoroughly discredited journalist who specialises in sucking up to Lord Ashcroft. 


    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10684
    Oh Labour revolts. Oh bills getting through. Oh madness. 

    I'm stopping politics for the rest of this week and I'm going to dedicate myself to making cherry pies instead.
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15348
    Oh Labour revolts. Oh bills getting through. Oh madness. 

    I'm stopping politics for the rest of this week and I'm going to dedicate myself to making cherry pies instead.
    I'm with you on that .. we're basically screwed ..

    Love the SNP .. ask for an emergency debate which is granted, piss off the speaker, leader of the SNP gets thrown out, SNP MPs walk out of the chamber and start talking about devolution. A cynical stunt. No thought about what's best for Scotland or the UK.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • SambostarSambostar Frets: 8359
    Absolutely god damn not
    It's the Playbus. We're not in control of ourselves. You're only as dumb as you're trained
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