Putin's Poisoners at it in Salisbury

Garthy

seany65 said:

I wouldn't mind so much about the Brit Govt. going on about this if the 'evidence' they had was more than "Well the poison stuff seems to have been made in the Soviet union".

To me, that's like blaming Germany  if an ISIS terrorist uses a VW camper Van to run down and kill a few people.

That's a moronic analogy.

boogieman

Blueingreen said:

seany65 said:

I wouldn't mind so much about the Brit Govt. going on about this if the 'evidence' they had was more than "Well the poison stuff seems to have been made in the Soviet union".

To me, that's like blaming Germany  if an ISIS terrorist uses a VW camper Van to run down and kill a few people.

I think the analogy only starts to work if the camper van was an enormously complex and dangerous machine which could only be driven by a tiny number of very highly trained personnel, all of the known ones being in the German military.

Sometimes you can't get certainty about things.  If the evidence shows a 95% degree of probability that someone intends to kill you, and you can never have incontrovertible proof, and that he will succeed unless you shoot him first, you have a choice to make.  I don't think the West can have the luxury of not reacting to Putin because it can't turn virtual certainty into absolute certainty.

Yep. And you don’t start poking The Bear with a stick unless there’s a VERY high degree of probability  that it was him that shat on your doorstep. Even Mrs May isn’t that stupid.

usedtobe

Be Reyt! That soft posh kid said Russia should go away and shut up..
Putin will be shitting himself now!
  

ICBM

boogieman said:

Yep. And you don’t start poking The Bear with a stick unless there’s a VERY high degree of probability  that it was him that shat on your doorstep. Even Mrs May isn’t that stupid.

Given how aggressive the bear is now, it might even be better to clean up the shit ourselves and pretend the doorstep doesn't stink, even if we actually saw him do it. The problem is that he will then just go on shitting on doorsteps... but the question is whether you really want to go out and argue with a bear.

chillidoggy

Obviously the nerve agent method was a bit too showy, they've moved on to strangulation now.

ICBM

chillidoggy said:

Obviously the nerve agent method was a bit too showy, they've movedf on to strangulation now.

They were probably disappointed that the other 14 or so they've killed were all put down as suicide, so they had to do something to make it more obvious. They can now go back to the easy way...

Interesting to see if the MI6 man who "locked himself" inside a suitcase which was impossible from the inside is one of them.

goldtop

What's interesting about the Russian position is that they could be saying: "It can't be us. We destroy ALL chemical weapons last year. Look - photo of us getting a certificate from nice OPCW man for doing it. You want see certificate? Frame is nice, yes? Solid wood, not potato."



But they're not saying anything like that.

Phil_aka_Pip

Blueingreen said:

seany65 said:

I wouldn't mind so much about the Brit Govt. going on about this if the 'evidence' they had was more than "Well the poison stuff seems to have been made in the Soviet union".

To me, that's like blaming Germany  if an ISIS terrorist uses a VW camper Van to run down and kill a few people.

I think the analogy only starts to work if the camper van was an enormously complex and dangerous machine which could only be driven by a tiny number of very highly trained personnel, all of the known ones being in the German military.

Sometimes you can't get certainty about things.  If the evidence shows a 95% degree of probability that someone intends to kill you, and you can never have incontrovertible proof, and that he will succeed unless you shoot him first, you have a choice to make.  I don't think the West can have the luxury of not reacting to Putin because it can't turn virtual certainty into absolute certainty.

Some of that is actually true, isn't it? I claim my "Unbelievable Truth" point.

underdog

Putin feels very safe knowing he has the US president in his pocket, sorry I mean on his side.

seany65

Garthy said:

seany65 said:

I wouldn't mind so much about the Brit Govt. going on about this if the 'evidence' they had was more than "Well the poison stuff seems to have been made in the Soviet union".

To me, that's like blaming Germany  if an ISIS terrorist uses a VW camper Van to run down and kill a few people.

That's a moronic analogy.

Oh, is it? Are you sure the Russkies did it?

Why, because the Govt. told you so and you can't be arsed asking for actual evidence?

How moronic is it to take seriously Govt. spokespeople being all indignant and angry  about the idea that innocent people could have been harmed/killed by this stuff, when the Brit Govt. has bombed hundreds, or even thousands of innocent people to bits and justified doing so with lies?

goldtop

seany65 said:

Garthy said:

seany65 said:

I wouldn't mind so much about the Brit Govt. going on about this if the 'evidence' they had was more than "Well the poison stuff seems to have been made in the Soviet union".

To me, that's like blaming Germany  if an ISIS terrorist uses a VW camper Van to run down and kill a few people.

That's a moronic analogy.

Oh, is it? Are you sure the Russkies did it?

Why, because the Govt. told you so and you can't be arsed asking for actual evidence?

How moronic is it to take seriously Govt. spokespeople being all indignant and angry  about the idea that innocent people could have been harmed/killed by this stuff, when the Brit Govt. has bombed hundreds, or even thousands of innocent people to bits and justified doing so with lies?

Well, let's see:
1) Putin said he was going to do it
2) Putin has done it before
3) Russians who have fallen out with Putin and co die in suspicious circumstances all over the world.
4) Russia lied to the OPCW about its chemical weapons
5) the certificate Russia got for destroying ALL of its chemical weapons is a bit odd
6) there are Russian chemical weapons experts openly reporting their time developing these weapons
7) you can't just weaponise this stuff and deploy it as if it were rat poison - it requires a level of expertise and a testing regime that isn't available to the average crook

So there's that and then there's this: as scummy as the British Establishment has been in its warmongering, extraordinary rendition, etc, it is as nothing compared to what Putin's been up to for the last 20 years.

So what sort of idiot would one have to be to look at the evidence and the past behaviours of HMG and those of the Russian State and then to conclude that the balance of probabilities is that HMG did it?

57Deluxe

Actually, public opinion might change on this practice as, as a result, all parking charges have been suspended in and around Salisbury!

seany65

gooldtop,

1) When did Putin say He was going poison Skrpal and His daughter, and how do you know this?
4) How do you know Russia lied to the OPCW?
5) How do you know the certificate Russia got is 'odd'?
6) Just because Russian scientists admit to developing these weapons doesn't mean no-one else could or did. A good example of a big weapon that is difficult to develop and make are Nuclear bombs. Lots of countries have developed and made them.
7) Agreed. But is the Russian Govt the only Govt that can do this?
2) and 3) are basically the same point. Can you name a govt that hasn't murdered it's 'enemies'? Does this 'prove' Russia did it?

You are correct. What the Brit Govt. has done does not compare to what the Russian Govt. has done. The Brit Govt has helped to kill tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people, I'm not sure the Russian Govt can match that.

I'd like to be able to answer your last point, but the Brit Govt. has not shown any evidence of any sort other than "Well, they've done this shit before, so..."

The organisation looking into this affair has apparently said they won't be able to come up with a clear answer for another couple of weeks.

Schnozz

Has anyone said if the Father and Daughter are dead yet? I would assume so, but I haven't seen any confirmation.

ICBM

seany65 said:

What the Brit Govt. has done does not compare to what the Russian Govt. has done. The Brit Govt has helped to kill tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people, I'm not sure the Russian Govt can match that.

Er... ever heard of Chechnya, Georgia, or eastern Ukraine? Have a search on the nasty little wars Russia has been pursuing in those places and see if you can work out if the total death toll is under, or over, a hundred thousand.

Garthy

Schnozz said:

Has anyone said if the Father and Daughter are dead yet? I would assume so, but I haven't seen any confirmation.

I think there's a news embargo on their deaths, the live TV reporters keep slipping up and correcting themselves on this point.

ICBM

Garthy said:

I think there's a news embargo on their deaths, the live TV reporters keep slipping up and correcting themselves on this point.

My guess is that they're technically being kept alive, but will never recover from the severe nervous system damage they must have suffered.

VimFuego

I've heard it's all just a film set and they've been seen walking around the wider wiltshire area. Something to do with a flag or something, I dunno. 
Anyways, there's a youtube video about it, so it must be true. 

goldtop

seany65 said:

gooldtop,

1) When did Putin say He was going poison Skrpal and His daughter, and how do you know this?
4) How do you know Russia lied to the OPCW?
5) How do you know the certificate Russia got is 'odd'?
6) Just because Russian scientists admit to developing these weapons doesn't mean no-one else could or did. A good example of a big weapon that is difficult to develop and make are Nuclear bombs. Lots of countries have developed and made them.
7) Agreed. But is the Russian Govt the only Govt that can do this?
2) and 3) are basically the same point. Can you name a govt that hasn't murdered it's 'enemies'? Does this 'prove' Russia did it?

You are correct. What the Brit Govt. has done does not compare to what the Russian Govt. has done. The Brit Govt has helped to kill tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people, I'm not sure the Russian Govt can match that.

I'd like to be able to answer your last point, but the Brit Govt. has not shown any evidence of any sort other than "Well, they've done this shit before, so..."

The organisation looking into this affair has apparently said they won't be able to come up with a clear answer for another couple of weeks.

If the bold bit is your honest assessment, after you've actually done some research, I'm not going to bother. You are clearly looking at this with blinkers.

An open mind and skepticism for your government is one thing, and healthy, but to use that and yet have an total inability to work out the balance of probabilities here is... bizarre. But handy for Putin's info-chaos purposes.

Emp_Fab

"Ve vere just flying all ze vay from Moscow to England to visit the incredible internationally acclaimed town of.... Salisbury.  It's so vunderful.  Our friends said ve should come, so ve did.  Stayed two days and flew all the way back to Moscow.....  Ve are just tourists....    ...Honest"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45509697



Hahahahahaha.........

No, seriously....


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!