Do I need a treble bleed kit?

chrishill901

I have bought a new guitar and it sounds great with the volume on 10. It is a Michael Kelly patriot custom so it has a single volume and single tone knob, both push pull to coil split. The volume splits the neck pickup and the tone splits the bridge. I like the pickups and the volume cleans the signal well and tapers fairly well. The only problem is that the tone goes muddy when it's on anything but 10. Even the lightest touch before 10 and it's like ive killed the treble. Would a treble bleed kit such as the following fix this, or is it a problem with the pot or pickups?

http://www.axesrus.co.uk/mobile/Product.aspx?id=39814

Thanks,
Chris

Megii

I would think that is probably the exact thing you're after. I fit similar treble bleed circuits to all my guitars - it's a fairly simple mod, and does the trick nicely. You will find that the parallel capacitor/resistor, like that kit from Axesrus, will also alter the taper of the volume pot a bit, so that the volume does not drop quite so quickly as you turn down. However, if you are starting with a log (AKA audio) taper volume pot, then I like the results using the treble bleed - it still drops the volume quicker than a linear pot would, but not too abruptly either, and nice for making precise volume changes. And of course, it doesn't kill the treble anymore!

chrishill901

Thanks for the reply. Will that kit do the trick? Are there better? I noticed this on eBay:

http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/171250835852?nav=SEARCH

Would that kit be better? I rely heavily on the guitar cleaning up

Megii

That kit will certainly do the job just as well. You can actually buy your own capacitors and resistors on ebay, for just a few quid - what you need is a 0.001 uF (i.e. 1000pF) capacitor, in parallel with something like a 100 to 150Kohm resistor. I recently bought ten 120Kohm resistors here, and ten 0.001 uF capacitors here - so for a few quid, I have enough for 10 guitars. Absolutely no need to buy a "kit" from anyone, and there is nothing to be gained from using different types of capacitor or anything - as long as the value is right is all that matters, although some people will try to tell you different (and probably charge you more). There is a guitarnutz2 forum thread here about comparing various treble bleed circuit designs, that you might find interesting, but they basically conclude that the best straightforward solution is a 0.001uF cap in parallel with a 100 to 150Kohm resistor.

steamabacus

I agree with Megii that you should buy some .001uF caps and a range of resistors - I'd suggest 100K up to around 330K - from somewhere like Maplins. They cost peanuts and you can experiment to find the resistor value that works best for you.

I put a treble bleed on all my guitars - sometimes it's just the cap, more often the cap and a resistor in parallel. I tend to go for something around a 300K resistor with humbuckers and 500K pots. I use the parallel resistor method.

It's a good idea to make up a couple of short cables from hook-up wire with small crocodile clips at each end. That way you can clip the cables to the corresponding lugs on the volume pot and experiment with different resistor values until you find what works best. If you make the crocodile clip cables long enough, you can even do this experimenting on something like a Strat with scratchplate-mounted controls without continually stringing/unstringing and removing/remounting the scratchplate.

FelineGuitars

I would wire the tone control 50s style first - so that the wire that goes to the tone control comes from the MIDDLE tag of the volume pot, and then think of adding the treble bled if needed

frankus

Why not just make a croc clip to a 500k pot and capacitor? for testing that is.

AlanP

I use a circuit very similar to the simple parallel capacitor, except that instead of just a cap, I use a cap and a resistor in series...  0.68 nF (AKA 680pF) and (usually) 68k IIRC.  The series resistor damps the big resonant peak that is present when you use the capacitor alone, but at the same time, the law of the pot is pretty much unaffected...

It seems to me that some guitars seem to need this kind of mod, and some just don't - and I haven't (so far) identified a convincing reason why that might be (apart from ascribing it just to the characteristics of the pickups and/or guitar lead).  But I do always like a volume pot that only affects the volume, rather than sucking the tone as well...

koneguitarist

FelineGuitars said:

I would wire the tone control 50s style first - so that the wire that goes to the tone control comes from the MIDDLE tag of the volume pot, and then think of adding the treble bled if needed

Good point. I have chopped out treble bleeds on my guitars,

GuitarMonkey

AlanP said:

I use a circuit very similar to the simple parallel capacitor, except that instead of just a cap, I use a cap and a resistor in series...  0.68 nF (AKA 680pF) and (usually) 68k IIRC.  The series resistor damps the big resonant peak that is present when you use the capacitor alone, but at the same time, the law of the pot is pretty much unaffected...

I'm not a big fan of treble pass circuits but yes, series for me too. 

I think it's hard to beat Chris Kinman's values 

http://rowbinet.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/kinman.png?w=275&h=300

ICBM

chrishill901 said:

Do I need a treble bleed kit?

No, you need a treble *pass* kit .

AlanP said:

I use a circuit very similar to the simple parallel capacitor, except that instead of just a cap, I use a cap and a resistor in series...  0.68 nF (AKA 680pF) and (usually) 68k IIRC.  The series resistor damps the big resonant peak that is present when you use the capacitor alone, but at the same time, the law of the pot is pretty much unaffected...

It seems to me that some guitars seem to need this kind of mod, and some just don't - and I haven't (so far) identified a convincing reason why that might be (apart from ascribing it just to the characteristics of the pickups and/or guitar lead).  But I do always like a volume pot that only affects the volume, rather than sucking the tone as well...

It's dependent on the cable to a large extent - the basic cause of the treble loss is the cable capacitance, so you can find you need to re-tune the values if you use a different lead.

This is why I like the "amp type tone control" treble pass circuit. You use the unused part of the tone control track as the series resistor, but it's then variable.

But I also do like the parallel circuit for a straightforward treble pass on a Log pot - the change in pot taper is useful in a lot of guitars. 680pF and 220K in parallel (the Tom Delonge Strat values ) works really well on a 500K pot.

chrishill901

Right, I have purchased parts for my treble 'pass' kit . Is the wiring any different as its a push pull pot, or am I just wiring it between the two pins on the pot itself that aren't soldered to the pot?

ICBM

chrishill901 said:

Right, I have purchased parts for my treble 'pass' kit . Is the wiring any different as its a push pull pot, or am I just wiring it between the two pins on the pot itself that aren't soldered to the pot?

Exactly the same as on a normal volume pot, between the two non-grounded pins.

chrishill901

Thanks

chrishill901

OK so... it didnt work. - If anything it doesnt clean up nearly as well and the treble disappears just the same. I soldered it between the two non-ground pins. Was 150k too much for the resistor?

ICBM

chrishill901 said:

OK so... it didnt work. - If anything it doesnt clean up nearly as well and the treble disappears just the same. I soldered it between the two non-ground pins. Was 150k too much for the resistor?

Try it without the resistor and see if it's either better, or too much.