Tone Pot Value

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Could someone confirm for me if the following is true?

The value of the volume pot affects the sound of the guitar even at full volume. But the value of the tone pot only affects the range of the tone cut available?

Or is it more complicated than that?
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Comments

  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    edited March 2018
    No, the value of the tone pot affects the tone at full up too, exactly because it’s an upper limit - but it’s fairly subtle. If you use a 250K instead of a 500K it will be as if it only goes up to 8. If you use a 500 instead of a 250 it will be like going up to 11.

    I do think it matters though - I don’t like a 250K tone with a 500K volume, I always want to turn the tone up more. The other way round is really good, it gives a hair more brightness without being as shrill as a no-load pot.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • FunkfingersFunkfingers Frets: 14323
    thegummy said:
    the range of the tone cut available
    The cut-off frequency for a passive treble roll off control is governed by the value of the capacitor(s). 

    How much of it is rolled off is governed by the resistance track taper of the pot.

    thegummy said:
    The value of the volume pot affects the sound of the guitar even at full volume.
    All pots can introduce signal loss and/or loading effects on the pickup(s). The obvious exemplar of this is the Fender Esquire. The only difference between two of the positions on the selector switch is that the tone control is bypassed. The result is increased high frequency content and, hence, overall signal strength.
    Be seeing you.
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  • thegummythegummy Frets: 4389
    Thanks a lot.

    I know about a trick for HSS setups where a fixed resistor is wired in parallel so the single coils "see" a 250K volume pot.

    I wonder if there's a wiring trick where the tone pot at 10 would act like it's 250K when the single coils are selected but 500K when the humbucker is selected?
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    thegummy said:

    I know about a trick for HSS setups where a fixed resistor is wired in parallel so the single coils "see" a 250K volume pot.

    I wonder if there's a wiring trick where the tone pot at 10 would act like it's 250K when the single coils are selected but 500K when the humbucker is selected?
    Yes, the same way - by adding a 470K resistor in parallel with the tone pot. You will need another switch pole to do this though - which you may not have available.

    A second option is to add both a 470K resistor, and a second 470K resistor in series with a 0.022uF cap, in parallel with it - that can be done using the same switch pole.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • thegummythegummy Frets: 4389
    Thanks man. 

    I have heard of dual pots, is it possible to get one that would be two separate pots, one 250k and one 500k that are controlled by the same shaft?

    I think the reason I want a single master tone knob is because with 2 separate ones I tend to forget I had turned one down then switch back to it and am surprised that it's dull.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    I don't know of any standard 250K+500K dual gang pots available. It's much easier just to use a 500K and modify the value - if it even matters, the difference is quite subtle.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • thegummythegummy Frets: 4389
    ICBM said:
    thegummy said:

    I know about a trick for HSS setups where a fixed resistor is wired in parallel so the single coils "see" a 250K volume pot.

    I wonder if there's a wiring trick where the tone pot at 10 would act like it's 250K when the single coils are selected but 500K when the humbucker is selected?
    Yes, the same way - by adding a 470K resistor in parallel with the tone pot. You will need another switch pole to do this though - which you may not have available.
    Have I got the right idea here?


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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    No, not quite.

    On the ‘blue’ switch there shouldn’t be any resistors, that’s the selector for the middle pickup.

    On the ‘red’ switch you need a 470K resistor, and a second 470K in series with a .022uF cap, both connected between the 0 terminal and ground.

    If this makes the 2nd position too dull - it might, without the humbucker being split - cut the connection between 2 and 3.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • thegummythegummy Frets: 4389
    ICBM said:
    No, not quite.

    On the ‘blue’ switch there shouldn’t be any resistors, that’s the selector for the middle pickup.

    On the ‘red’ switch you need a 470K resistor, and a second 470K in series with a .022uF cap, both connected between the 0 terminal and ground.

    If this makes the 2nd position too dull - it might, without the humbucker being split - cut the connection between 2 and 3.
    Would there still also be a 0.022 cap on the left lug of the tone control as normal in addition to the one inn series with the 470k resistor?

    Would that simulate both the tone pot and the volume pot being around 250K to positions 2-5?
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    thegummy said:

    Would there still also be a 0.022 cap on the left lug of the tone control as normal in addition to the one inn series with the 470k resistor?

    Would that simulate both the tone pot and the volume pot being around 250K to positions 2-5?
    Yes. The .022uF is correct for the humbucker. Adding another .022 with the 470K resistor gives an effective .047uF/250K tone control which is correct for single coils.

    (Actually .044uF/242K, but that’s within the tolerance of the actual components and makes no difference.)

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • thegummythegummy Frets: 4389
    ICBM said:
    thegummy said:

    Would there still also be a 0.022 cap on the left lug of the tone control as normal in addition to the one inn series with the 470k resistor?

    Would that simulate both the tone pot and the volume pot being around 250K to positions 2-5?
    Yes. The .022uF is correct for the humbucker. Adding another .022 with the 470K resistor gives an effective .047uF/250K tone control which is correct for single coils.

    (Actually .044uF/242K, but that’s within the tolerance of the actual components and makes no difference.)
    Ah okay I get you.

    Say I preferred .022 cap for both the singles and the humbuckers - would it just be a case of having 2 470K resistors in parallel?

    If so, wouldn't that be what my diagram provided anyway?
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    No, the other resistor would have to go to where the cap is connected on the tone control.

    Techically it should do that anyway, and you would need to use the other pole of the switch to select the cap values, but the difference is so small it’s probably not worth worrying about, and it does increase the complexity.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • thegummythegummy Frets: 4389
    I think you're right about it being too subtle to bother. While I've been trying to work this out I've just been using a 500k master tone and the single coils don't sound too bright by any means. When I turn it down to 8 I feel like it changes but I wouldn't be confident that it was anything other than placebo effect.

    Thanks for the advice.

    P.S. I'm loving this HSS Strat with a bare knuckle mule in the bridge; splits shockingly well!
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  • normula1normula1 Frets: 639
    I found the Mule splits really well too, especially with a PRS style partial split.
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  • thegummythegummy Frets: 4389
    normula1 said:
    I found the Mule splits really well too, especially with a PRS style partial split.
    Only tried a normal full coil split but I went in thinking that I want the humbucker mainly but might as well add the split switch as it'll be better than nothing for approximating single coil tones but it surprised me that it's actually very nice sounding when split, much closer to a real single coil than I've had from split humbuckers before.

    Was also surprised at how well it balances volume-wise with the Fat 50s pickups. Was expecting a much quieter output on the split Mule but it's roughly the same level.
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