Guitarists who write songs vs Songwriters who are good guitarists

Octafish

randella said:

Axe_meister said:

Dave Gilmour 

I love his guitar playing, his vocals and, from the interviews I've seen, I like him as a person very much.

At the risk of getting a well-used black Stratocaster upside the head from an enraged fan, I'm going to go out on a limb here: his post-Floyd material has become increasingly weak.  I couldn't make it all the way through Rattle that Lock.

There.  I said it.

*runs and hides in bunker*

Totally agree. Massive Gilmour fan here, he was one my main reasons for picking up guitar, but his solo stuff is very weak and aimless.

Philly_Q

In some ways I think it may be more a question for the artist -  does he (or she) regard him (or her) self as a songwriting guitarist or guitar-playing songwriter?

I don't really care how they label themselves or prioritise their talents, so long as I like what they do.

However, in terms of musical taste, I guess I'd have to say I like music which is guitar-driven rather than song-driven.... but then I don't like it if the songs aren't good.  Put it another way, I certainly don't like "singer/songwriter" music if the guitar isn't a prominent element.

It's all a bit chicken and egg.

AliGorie

RandallFlagg said:

What do you prefer? A vituoso guitarist who also writes songs and sings as a vehicle for his guitar playing or a singer/songwriter who happens to be a good guitarist?

Or so you prefer a guitarist to be just that and not sing?

Randy - I can't break it up to suite u'r criteria  but,
I love a good song + singing + interpretation - accompaniment is then, just that - it's about the song.
Players - I enjoy players who have 'feel' and who drop the ego and allow the 'tune' be the star.
I also appreciate players who compose their own music - just doing in vogue arrangements, well u'r a cover artist.
Unless it's Joe Pass in his era.  
 

Phil_aka_Pip

vocals are a waste of space between the guitar solos

proggy

randella said:

Axe_meister said:

Dave Gilmour 

I love his guitar playing, his vocals and, from the interviews I've seen, I like him as a person very much.

At the risk of getting a well-used black Stratocaster upside the head from an enraged fan, I'm going to go out on a limb here: his post-Floyd material has become increasingly weak.  I couldn't make it all the way through Rattle that Lock.

There.  I said it.

*runs and hides in bunker*

Another +1 from a massive Gilmour fan.

57Deluxe

Ralph McTell vs Eric Clapton?

Rocker

The rest of the band support the vocalist (who is the most important member of the band).  Drums & bass = foundation, sax,guitar, brass + other instruments = lead breaks.  I thought everyone knew that.  Hence the question is irrelevant.  Whoever writes the songs, writes the songs.

Kilgore

Songwriter. The quality of guitar playing is a minor issue for me. 

 That's why the correct answer is John Prine.

thumpingrug

However, there are examples of both,  Spingsteen and Prince spring immediately to mind.

viz

@not_the_dj said:

Fretwired said:

thumpingrug said:

I think Steve Vai has clearly shown that a songwriter who is good on guitar, is much better that a shit hot guitarist who tries to sing.  

Steve Vai writes songs ...... scratches chin ...

Half of "Fire Garden" had him singing....and the album with Devin of course, but he took most of the vocals...

Here's Mr Vai as vocalist and guitarist....

This is a really good topic.

Re. Vai, I agree; he thinks of himself primarily as a composer, collaborator, arranger and producer; he happens to be good enough at the guitar that his composing is not hampered by a barrier in playing ability. All through his career he’s produced really interesting compositions. I’m sure he would like to be remembered for that and not for the widdly stuff (but he won’t be, of course).

I also really like his voice!

(You edited your post so the video link’s lost by the way.)

not_the_dj

Vai video reinserted, thanks @viz I didn’t notice i’d killed it when I corrected a typo. 

It was interesting in the recent Lee Anderton interview with him that Lee suggests his output is 90% instrumental, then Vai tried to correct him and say 60/40, maybe 70/30. He certainly sees himself as more than just an instrumental shredder. 

viz

not_the_dj said:

Vai video reinserted, thanks @viz I didn’t notice i’d killed it when I corrected a typo. 

It was interesting in the recent Lee Anderton interview with him that Lee suggests his output is 90% instrumental, then Vai tried to correct him and say 60/40, maybe 70/30. He certainly sees himself as more than just an instrumental shredder. 

Yep - must get round to watching that. 

TheBigDipper

We're all coming at this from our own personal perspective - which is understandable. I'm in the camp that prefers musicians and their compositions - the fact they're guitarists isn't important to me. I didn't learn about music so I could play the guitar - I learned  the guitar because I needed an instrument to play music. 

I think Richard Thompson seems to meet the definition of being a great songwriter, expressive singer and also be a virtuoso guitarist. Most of his songs sound great with just decent plain vanilla playing, though - the "virtuoso guitar playing" isn't a requirement of the material, just a nice embellishment by the great man. 

To repeat my heavily-bastardised Segovia quote...

"Great guitar players have the technique and ability to say so much with their playing, but in the main, actually have very little to say when they do."

LuttiS

digitalscream said:

thecolourbox said:

digitalscream said:

LuttiS said:

Went to a metal festival recently and most of the bands it seemed tried to play as fast as they could with as many notes as they could as heavily as they could. Some of it was pretty impressive tbf, but it was so boring as vocals all seemed to be an afterthought and was often just some bloke retching into the mic. I'm not necessarily against this, i just like a melody to be involved.

I can understand fast = technically good (assuming it's played cleanly), but I really don't get the current fad which says fast = heavy. To my mind, "heavy" is "plenty of distortion, but an overall bottom-heavy sound with the entire rhythm section in lock-step". Too much speed simply obscures what's happening in the bass and low mids, and robs the sound of all of its heaviness.

I think it's because I'm from a piano background, but I've always felt that fast playing showed a lack of real technique, playing slowly is much harder (like riding a bike as slowly as you possibly can) but that might be a piano thing

I've always felt that playing fast should be an accent on the music or an effect, rather than the focus of the music itself. Modern metal seems to be mostly the drummer showing his mad endurance skillz by playing double-kick from beginning to end (punctuated far too often with the snare), taking a short break while the singer proves that he can actually talk like a human (instead of barking at the mic like an angry Chihuahua), then back at it again.

I have no idea what the guitars and bass are doing, because I can never hear them.

It was drowned out by the amount of distortion involved... 
I was watching what the guitarists and bassists were doing and they all seemed to be looking angry and moving their fingers a lot. It was some pretty impressive finger movement but it just didn't translate to sound..

Phil_aka_Pip

Rocker said:

The rest of the band support the vocalist (who is the most important member of the band).  Drums & bass = foundation, sax,guitar, brass + other instruments = lead breaks.  I thought everyone knew that.  Hence the question is irrelevant.  Whoever writes the songs, writes the songs.

Deep Purple used to write most of their songs. The credit goes Gillan/Blackmore/Lord/Glover/Paice. I am under the impression that each band member wrote his own part.

Phil_aka_Pip

FZ used to describe himself as a musician who happens to be able to handle an instrument called a guitar.

Fretwired

not_the_dj said:

Fretwired said:

thumpingrug said:

I think Steve Vai has clearly shown that a songwriter who is good on guitar, is much better that a shit hot guitarist who tries to sing.  

Steve Vai writes songs ...... scratches chin ...

Half of "Fire Garden" had him singing....and the album with Devin of course, but he took most of the vocals...

Here's Mr Vai as vocalist and guitarist....

https://youtu.be/ddnhfobteSA

Seems like the vocals were just wedged into a guitar instrumental. Didn't float my boat.

Fretwired

I'd vote for Neil Young and John Martyn ..

TheBigDipper

Phil_aka_Pip said:

Rocker said:

<snip>

Deep Purple used to write most of their songs. The credit goes Gillan/Blackmore/Lord/Glover/Paice. I am under the impression that each band member wrote his own part.

That's more likely to be a royalties declaration to keep everyone in the band happy. Coldplay, Radiohead and U2 do something similar, I believe. 

Parts don't just appear out of nowhere. Someone has a rhythmic, melodic or harmonic idea that starts everything off. Wouldn't we all agree that Smoke On The Water is a guitar riff with a melody line, catchy chorus and interesting lyric? I don't think the drums or bass really have much influence over the composition - good though they both were as players and good though their parts on the song are. 

Improvised-based bands, like Can, for example, may have developed material by all playing together, and then cut & pasted the tapes to make a recorded composition, but that's different. 

randella

TheBigDipper said:

I think Richard Thompson seems to meet the definition of being a great songwriter, expressive singer and also be a virtuoso guitarist. Most of his songs sound great with just decent plain vanilla playing, though - the "virtuoso guitar playing" isn't a requirement of the material, just a nice embellishment by the great man.

Oh good shout.  I saw him at the Sage in Gateshead a few years back, absolutely cracking gig.  Music, tone, raw guitar talent.

He was personable, but looked very nervous on stage which I can understand - although to be honest he could have mooned the crowd and told them to fuck off and they'd have given him a standing ovation.

Anyway, I digress.  Superb musician.