The Windrush People

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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11037
    quarky said:

    Holy fuck, what would she do to people who really piss her off?

    She'd call a snap election. 

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9uhFpxXsAAJiNG.jpg

    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2242
    I think that turned out to be a massive misjudgement, rather than a masterstroke of cunning.
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  • DarnWeightDarnWeight Frets: 834
    There are clearly some out there who are happy with allowing wholly-innocent UK citizens to be the collateral damage of a "hostile environment" immigration policy.  These are the kind of balls ups that ultimately result from this knee-jerk rhetoric-as-policy bullshit.
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16249
    quarky said:
    I think that turned out to be a massive misjudgement, rather than a masterstroke of cunning.
    Calling the election was fine. She should have won. However, Labour had real polices in their manifesto which resonated with voters, the Tories had none and their manifesto was a joke. Corbyn came across as a caring, committed politician whilst May looked like she'd walked off the set of Metropolis and just robotically repeated trite sound bites that turned voters off. And just when you thought it couldn't get any worse they let BoJo lose ... a total car crash.
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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2242
    edited April 19
    Sorry, that is real life. People try and do their best, try and conform to policy, and yet still make bad decisions. That happens, yes, even when Labour are in power. 

    So it isn't a question of being happy with it, it is pretty appalling that people were in this situation after being here for decades, but it is question of accepting that it does happen, and then not blaming May personally, as Corbyn did in some silly personal attack. Probably trying to get his followers to create an atmosphere of moral outrage, to try to score points, and possibly defect from his and his party's own issues. 

    The destroying of the documentation was a screw-up. Attempting to pin the blame on May was contrary to Corbyn's previous stated stance on personal attacks so looked a little shaky. Today though, it looks pathetic given what we now know about when the decision was made, and by who.
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16249
    quarky said:
    Sorry, that is real life. People try and do their best, try and conform to policy, and yet still make bad decisions. That happens, yes, even when Labour are in power. 

    So it isn't a question of being happy with it, it is question of accepting that it does happen, and then not blaming May personally, as Corbyn did in some silly personal attack, trying to get his followers to create an atmosphere of moral outrage, to try to score points, and possibly defect from his and his party's own issues. 

    The destroying of the documentation was a screw-up. Attempting to pin the blame on May was contrary to Corbyn's previous stated stance on personal attacks so looked a little shaky. Today though, it looks pathetic given what we now know about when the decision was made, and by who.
    I have to agree with @quarky and his posts. I don't think any of this is deliberate - its a massive vote loser for one thing and damages Britain's creditability abroad, especially with the Commonwealth Nations .

    A tightening of immigration laws had a set of unintended consequences. Whilst the Home Office claims ministers would have been kept informed I have a more cynical view based on Yes Minter/Prime Minister (which was close to the truth) and other cock-ups over the years that things were 'glossed over' and not thought through properly. Not enough due diligence.

    Labour had good reason to destroy the landing cards - May would have just followed through so blaming each other is as pointless as two bald men fighting over a comb. The landing cards actually prove nothing.


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  • DarnWeightDarnWeight Frets: 834
    edited April 19
    I do agree that there's no sinister, overarching racist plot behind any of this, hence my "collateral damage" point...This is all an unintended consequence, yes, but of a poorly-conceived piece of populist legislation.  Real life was just as real back in 2014, when some people flagged up the potential for abuse/misuse/cock-ups with this act, and everyone else (the majority of the Labour party too, I should add) waved it through Parliament with barely a glance.  May as Home Sec was itching to be seen as playing it tough on immigration, particularly on the back of a bunch of high-profile judgements against her attempted deportations in the International courts. 

    Play to the crowds, play to the papers, shoot that UKIP fox...that's how this situation really came about.  The botched handling  of the Windrush landing card data just happens to be the issue that has brought this to the fore.  They were an awful government four years ago, and are even worse now.
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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2242
    edited April 19
    But the problem (from what I see) isn't the Immigration Act. Any country (yes, even this one) *should* be able to remove citizenship status from certain people who wish to do it harm.

    The problem here is that these people didn't have the correct documentation in the first place. If *that* had been, as it should, the Act isn't relevant (from what I can see). It is just being used as a brush to paint the Government as a bunch of fascists in disguise, which I would think most people should be able to see through now.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11037
    quarky said:


    So it isn't a question of being happy with it, it is pretty appalling that people were in this situation after being here for decades, but it is question of accepting that it does happen, and then not blaming May personally, as Corbyn did in some silly personal attack. Probably trying to get his followers to create an atmosphere of moral outrage, to try to score points, and possibly defect from his and his party's own issues. 

    The destroying of the documentation was a screw-up. Attempting to pin the blame on May was contrary to Corbyn's previous stated stance on personal attacks so looked a little shaky. Today though, it looks pathetic given what we now know about when the decision was made, and by who.
    1. When he asked her a question as to whether she was Home Secretary when this was signed off, do you take that as a personal attack? 

    2. May has made plenty of personal attacks in her time as Prime Minister. How does that affect her standing in your eyes compared to Corbyn?
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • JalapenoJalapeno Frets: 3327
    As this seems to have descended into the usual bald men arguing over a comb - moved to OT - Politics

    Imagine something sharp and witty here ......

    Feedback
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  • DarnWeightDarnWeight Frets: 834
    quarky said:
    But the problem (from what I see) isn't the Immigration Act. Any country (yes, even this one) *should* be able to remove citizenship status from certain people who wish to do it harm.

    The problem here is that these people didn't have the correct documentation in the first place. If *that* had been, as it should, the Act isn't relevant (from what I can see). It is just being used as a brush to paint the Government as a bunch of fascists in disguise, which I would think most people should be able to see through now.
    But, from the details of the few cases I've read in the last week or so, why set the qualifying criteria so high, and make the whole process so toxic?  One of the people affected was able to dig up records of National Insurance contributions going back decades, but was made to jump through hoop after poxy hoop to meet the HO's criteria, and (as I recall) has still not yet received confirmation of his status.

    This "burden-of-proof" culture has been instilled from the top, but something appears to have been terribly lost in translation by the time it gets down to the business end of officials dealing with those people affected.

    Also, I see this morning that May's ghastly ex policy adviser Nick Timothy has come out in support of extending the "hostile environment" even further.  That's reason enough to be extremely wary, I'd say.
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16249

    1. When he asked her a question as to whether she was Home Secretary when this was signed off, do you take that as a personal attack? 

    2. May has made plenty of personal attacks in her time as Prime Minister. How does that affect her standing in your eyes compared to Corbyn?
    Corbyn was asking a legitimate question - it was the wrong question, but it was legitimate and not a personal attack.

    Corbyn has faced what looks like an organised campaign from the government, media and some of his own party. He gets full marks for being so resilient. Many of the attacks on May are justified - poor performance and decision making. No so on Corbyn - for example, IRA sympathiser.

    He's on the wrong tack though. May is incompetent and she's not a detailed person. He should have asked some searching questions, such as when did she become aware there was an issue, how many people have been deported, how many people face deportation, how many people are affected, how long will this take to be resolved .. and so on. May would have not been able to answer the questions and would come across as what she is - totally incompetent and not fit to be PM.

    And if you think that's harsh pop over to YouTube and watch Thatcher in action. Love or loathe her she was a detail person. George Gallow disliked Thatcher but he said she was the most impressive parliamentarian he'd ever seen when it came to answering questions directly and with a level of detail that wrong-footed her opponents.

    Thatcher would wipe the floor with May without having to think very hard.

    Corbyn v Thatcher



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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16249
    Jalapeno said:
    As this seems to have descended into the usual bald men arguing over a comb - moved to OT - Politics

    Oi .... less of the insults Mr Hot Pepper .... ;-)
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11037
    edited April 19
    Fretwired said:
    Corbyn was asking a legitimate question - it was the wrong question, but it was legitimate and not a personal attack.

    Corbyn has faced what looks like an organised campaign from the government, media and some of his own party. He gets full marks for being so resilient. Many of the attacks on May are justified - poor performance and decision making. No so on Corbyn - for example, IRA sympathiser.

    He's on the wrong tack though. May is incompetent and she's not a detailed person. He should have asked some searching questions, such as when did she become aware there was an issue, how many people have been deported, how many people face deportation, how many people are affected, how long will this take to be resolved .. and so on. May would have not been able to answer the questions and would come across as what she is - totally incompetent and not fit to be PM.

    And if you think that's harsh pop over to YouTube and watch Thatcher in action. Love or loathe her she was a detail person. George Gallow disliked Thatcher but he said she was the most impressive parliamentarian he'd ever seen when it came to answering questions directly and with a level of detail that wrong-footed her opponents.

    Thatcher would wipe the floor with May without having to think very hard.
    I'd say it was a legitimate question. I'm simply puzzled by Quarky's repeated allegation of Corbyn getting all personal. Wanting a better form of political discourse is no bad thing and he has clearly tried. Even May's predecessor remarked that COrbyn's first PMQs was a more civilised affair than normal. But when one faces such regular attacks, it is only right to retort back now and then. 

    Thatcher was indeed very good in her day. It's a different time now with social media. Maybe if she were here leading us now, she'd be indulging in a tweet-off with the Donald. 

    DarnWeight's mention of Nick Timothy is spot on. His defence of the 'go home' vans is bizarre. May was against them as Home Secretary, blocked the proposal, but it was revived and approved whilst she was on holiday. That almost gets into the realm of plausible deniability. 


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  • DarnWeightDarnWeight Frets: 834
    I'd like to have it put on record that I sport a thick and lusty man mane, and no, you're not allowed to stroke it.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11037
    I'd like to have it put on record that I sport a thick and lusty man mane, and no, you're not allowed to stroke it.
    Michael Fabricant says much the same thing. 
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2242
    quarky said:


    So it isn't a question of being happy with it, it is pretty appalling that people were in this situation after being here for decades, but it is question of accepting that it does happen, and then not blaming May personally, as Corbyn did in some silly personal attack. Probably trying to get his followers to create an atmosphere of moral outrage, to try to score points, and possibly defect from his and his party's own issues. 

    The destroying of the documentation was a screw-up. Attempting to pin the blame on May was contrary to Corbyn's previous stated stance on personal attacks so looked a little shaky. Today though, it looks pathetic given what we now know about when the decision was made, and by who.
    1. When he asked her a question as to whether she was Home Secretary when this was signed off, do you take that as a personal attack? 

    2. May has made plenty of personal attacks in her time as Prime Minister. How does that affect her standing in your eyes compared to Corbyn?
    As I wrote yesterday:
    "Yesterday Corbyn tweeted specifically that it happened on May's watch. Today he said "Responsibility for this shameful episode lies firmly with the Prime Minister."

    Yes, I think those are a personal dig at May, rather than attempting to deal with the issue at hand. Don't you? 

    As for May's standard. Don't worry, it has never been particularly high in my eyes either. At least she isn't pretending to be something she isn't though.
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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2242
    I'd like to have it put on record that I sport a thick and lusty man mane, and no, you're not allowed to stroke it.
    I was told by a hairdresser the other day that he has "never seen an Englishman with such think hair". So not me either. Haven't used a comb since I was about six either.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11037
    edited April 19
    quarky said:
    As I wrote yesterday:
    "Yesterday Corbyn tweeted specifically that it happened on May's watch. Today he said "Responsibility for this shameful episode lies firmly with the Prime Minister."

    Yes, I think those are a personal dig at May, rather than attempting to deal with the issue at hand. Don't you? 

    As for May's standard. Don't worry, it has never been particularly high in my eyes either. At least she isn't pretending to be something she isn't though.

    The tweet appears to be pretty standard Opposition fare. Had it been the Conservatives on the opposition benches, I'm sure there would have been much the same. A personal attack to me is more of the type that Cameron delivered to Corbyn regarding his attire or May's 'naked' comments

    I'm not sure whether someone who tries not to make personal comments but does sometimes make them is worse than someone who makes them regularly. It's kind of cracking down on the kid in the schoolyard who eventually snaps against the bully whilst favouring the bully for at least being consistent. So I think you and I are stuck at a 4-4 draw here with no chance of penalties to settle this. Rock paper scissors? 



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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16249
    edited April 19
    Some light relief .....



    Anne: What's up Andrew?
    Andrew: That awful Mrs May asked me if I could prove I'm British. She thinks we're all German and should be deported.
    Anne: Don't worry. Mummy has a plan.



    Queen: Is everything in place?
    Charles: Yes mummy. Operation Terminate Maybot in under way. James Bond is on standby.
    Queen: Excellent!



    Official: Ma'am, Mr Bond is here.
    Mrs May: James Bond .. how exciting.
    Queen: He's come to meet you .. pop along now and say hello!
    Mrs May: How exciting.



    Queen: That worked out rather well. Shall we go to dinner?

    Lots of applause.

    Later ....



    Queen: Well done Mr Bond.
    Bond: No problem ma'am
    Queen: A knighthood in the New Years honours I think is a fitting reward. Sir James Bond.
    Bond: Thank you ma'am.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11037
    I've got all the light relief I need reading that ECB plan for 100 ball cricket. 

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/43824037

    My campaign for 12 minute badminton begins now. 
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16249
    I've got all the light relief I need reading that ECB plan for 100 ball cricket. 

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/43824037

    My campaign for 12 minute badminton begins now. 
    How will that work? 16.66 overs or 5 balls an over ...
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2242
    Heartfeltdawn said:So I think you and I are stuck at a 4-4 draw here with no chance of penalties to settle this. Rock paper scissors? 


    Rock, no wait, paper!
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11037
    quarky said:
    Heartfeltdawn said:So I think you and I are stuck at a 4-4 draw here with no chance of penalties to settle this. Rock paper scissors? 


    Rock, no wait, paper!
    Rock, paper, chemical barrel. 
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11037
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16249
    Alan Johnson's take on the border cards ..... did May setup Corbyn? I'd wouldn't have thought her clever enough.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43835664

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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11037
    And Nick Timothy has now deleted his Twitter account. 

    https://order-order.com/2018/04/20/nick-timothy-leaves-twitter/


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  • SkippedSkipped Frets: 2093
    This is scandalous.
     The woman is 81 and the Tories have destroyed her life.
    This damage cannot be repaired.

    http://www.iwcp.co.uk/news/national/16174522.Windrush_era_migrants____denied_re_entry_to_Britain_after_Caribbean_visits___/

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  • rocktronrocktron Frets: 461
    Breaking News: Windrush Generation Immigration Landing Cards Found

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5640647/Arrival-records-tens-thousands-Windrush-generation-found.html

    So the records were available after all where they should be found - the National Archives.
     
    This is turning into a Home Office farce.
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  • Phil_aka_PipPhil_aka_Pip Frets: 8796
    rocktron said:

    This is turning into a Home Office farce.
    The Home Office usually is
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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