SGs, QC and what to do?

ICBM

Phil_aka_Pip said:

Why would you need a PCB in a guitar like an SG? As if the caps couldn't be soldered straight to the pot lugs - it's just adding cost and complexity, not to mention unreliability ...

My guess is that it does actually reduce cost because the PCB can be manufactured off-site and the assembly time into the guitar itself - the part requiring the most skilled labour - can be minimised.

But it must be quite marginal since there is still hand assembly required even using the PCB, and there must be a cost to the PCB manufacturing.

The reliability issues are real though. Which isn't also to say that there can't be issues with the traditional method either, if the workmanship isn't perfect.

impmann

Aren't the pickups plug in jobs on these new pcbs? If so, that is a massive cost saving... as boards can be spun quite cheaply, then the electronics can be installed by non-skilled people without the need for soldering skills (cheaper labour rate). Combine that with equipment costs (soldering stations need upkeep), even in the US there are requirements for fume extraction (costs for the filters) and the costs of rework from where some will ineviatably be damaged during assembly would be less (less chance of heat related issues, less chance of dry joints etc).

I can see the plus points from a cost perspective and if it were done well, it wouldn't be a problem... however thats where it falls down, as its been implemented on the cheap and they don't have the checking procedures in place to catch this stuff before it goes out.

BloodEagle

Even with the PCBs I can only imagine that Gibson are drafting in the tea ladies to finish off what necessary soldering remains - if youve seen the quality of the solder joints on recent Gibson guitars you will have an idea what I mean

crunchman

ICBM said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

Why would you need a PCB in a guitar like an SG? As if the caps couldn't be soldered straight to the pot lugs - it's just adding cost and complexity, not to mention unreliability ...

My guess is that it does actually reduce cost because the PCB can be manufactured off-site and the assembly time into the guitar itself - the part requiring the most skilled labour - can be minimised.

But it must be quite marginal since there is still hand assembly required even using the PCB, and there must be a cost to the PCB manufacturing.

The reliability issues are real though. Which isn't also to say that there can't be issues with the traditional method either, if the workmanship isn't perfect.

I had a Gibson ES339 several years back where it started to go intermittent after I adjusted the volume.  I initially thought it was a dodgy pot but it turned out that the wires weren't actually soldered to the volume pot.  They were just wrapped on the tags.

My most recent Gibson (actually the only one I still have) had a really badly cut nut.  I've owned 5 Gibsons and only one of them didn't have an issue of some kind.  Some were only cosmetic, but they do need to look at their QC.  To be fair to them, it's possible they may be better now.  My most recent one is 3 years old.

bobliefeld

PCBs do give you a slightly fuller and throatier tone.  There's a noticeable boost around the 250hz to 500hz range with a PCB that I for one enjoy.  Yes I have compared PCB vs harness in the same guitars, both by ear and by analyzing recordings.  

I believe this is because they have a higher surface area than a wired harness and/or because the PCB makes more contact with the body and pots.    

The reliability issues aren't inherent to PCBs, just that Gibson to a fairly poor job at soldering everything to them.  I prefer to fix those issues over replacing the PCB completely.  

BloodEagle

Its true there's a lot of tone which regular old fashioned wiring just will not pick up

andyp

crunchman said:

My most recent Gibson (actually the only one I still have) had a really badly cut nut.

I didn't remember to mention it above, but I had the nut replaced on my SG too. It made a huge difference. It was always tough to tune, and went out of tune all the time... now it's smooth and only needs a slight tweak on 2 or 3 strings. I'm positive it sounded better after that change too.

So... my issues were:-

1. Pickups replaced under warranty
2. PCB was too big so we removed it and rewired it
3. Nut was terrible

When it went in for the new nut, I had a setup done and it's now an absolutely fantastic guitar. Unfortunately, it's easily arguable that all of these things should have been that way from the factory. I guess I've laid out about £150 to upgrade it, most of that was the setup cost though.

NelsonP

Straight lines through the checkboxes suggest a man in a rush at Gibson's QC?

....and this is on a high end signature guitar

ICBM

NelsonP said:

Straight lines through the checkboxes suggest a man in a rush at Gibson's QC?

....and this is on a high end signature guitar

Striking a line through something usually indicates that it hasn't been done, so that's probably correct...

bobliefeld

The line is a labour/cost saving measure that Henry put in place.  On of the consultancy firms they hired said a line instead of individual ticks would save a few hundred man hours a year.  

WezV

NelsonP said:

Straight lines through the checkboxes suggest a man in a rush at Gibson's QC?

....and this is on a high end signature guitar

what measurement were they using for the action?  3-5mm at the 12th is massively high

johnl

I believe it's 64ths of an inch because of the joys of imperial measurements. 

ICBM

johnl said:

I believe it's 64ths of an inch because of the joys of imperial measurements. 

And that still makes the measurements at the 1st fret far too high, which is unsurprising when you've set up a lot of Gibsons that haven't been touched since they left the factory.

WezV

johnl said:

I believe it's 64ths of an inch because of the joys of imperial measurements. 

I hope you are right, but given the OP’s  description I wasn’t sure.  Still too high 

Philly_Q

I like the way they have "Buzzing" as opposed to "Buzz-Free" on that checklist.

Yep, it's definitely buzzing.  Check.

Headphones

Wow, you lot have been busy while I was away!

My "check list" looks spookily like the one further up the page, my giggle at first sight in the case now seems rather ironic.

The "djent" question earlier - the answer's no.  That just seems to be the way these are built.  If anything it's a bit bright and has an output similar to the PAF-alikes I have in my PRS SC.  It does do a pretty good "DIO era" Iommi tone when the amp gain is up though.

The "accidentally" tapped neck sounds very like the P90 loaded Strat I have, but in a more appropriate guitar, hence the P90 thoughts mentioned at the start.