Buying from Reverb - CITES

cgumtree

I've been looking for a very specific guitar for several months and I've finally seen one come up for sale on Reverb. I'm nervous about importing it from a private seller, though, given CITES requirements and the associated process. It's a modern guitar made in 2016, so no old Brazilian rosewood to deal with.

Can anyone explain exactly what I'd need to do in terms of getting paperwork and certificates from the seller? Are there any brokers that can handle all of this for me, and deliver the guitar safely to me?

guitars4you

I assume it has a rosewood fingerboard still, even if not Brazilian, so probably Indian - Any guitar imported into the EU/UK from outside those borders does require a CITES certificate - If it is ebony or maple then no issues hence no CITES required

However if you bring it back on the plane with you, as your own guitar then no paperwork required - but still a good idea to have a receipt with serial number

The following run CITES - click on the web site to find additional info and forms required - However note this is the paperwork required to get the guitar in to the EU/UK - If it is in the USA, then the seller will need to arrange the export CITES for you - can take 4-8 weeks in all - I don't think you can finalize the EU/UK import licence until you get the USA export CITES number - but certainly both are required - Clear as mud and good luck

Animal and Plant Health Agency (APHA)

Telephone: 0117 372 3700 | Email: wildlife.licensing@apha.gsi.gov.uk

Website: www.gov.uk/apha | Twitter: @APHAgovuk | Facebook: aphagov

Address: UK CITES Management Authority, Centre for International Trade - Bristol

Horizon House, Deanery Road, Bristol, BS1 5AH 

cgumtree

Thanks for the detailed info @guitars4you. Such a PITA! Not sure I can really expect the seller to organise the export paperwork (it's an individual rather than company).

guitars4you

cgumtree said:

Thanks for the detailed info @guitars4you. Such a PITA! Not sure I can really expect the seller to organise the export paperwork (it's an individual rather than company).

that is the issue - asking and hoping they can arrange it - both time and cost - it is a farce regarding used gear in the opinion of many - not worth the risking of shipping without - you might get lucky, but can easily end up with it confiscated 

57Deluxe

guitars4you said:

Animal and Plant Health Agency (APHA)

Telephone: 0117 372 3700 | Email: wildlife.licensing@apha.gsi.gov.uk

Website: www.gov.uk/apha | Twitter: @APHAgovuk | Facebook: aphagov

Address: UK CITES Management Authority, Centre for International Trade - Bristol

Horizon House, Deanery Road, Bristol, BS1 5AH 

am I allowed to put a spider outside if is found indoors? Will they be able to clarify this??

SunDevil

Amazed that rosewood is covered and ebony not? ..thought ebony was more endangered?

guitars4you

SunDevil said:

Amazed that rosewood is covered and ebony not? ..thought ebony was more endangered?

the issue was based on a huge amount of rosewood that China is/was buying and they needed to control it - the answer was to ban all rosewood unless accompanied with CITES as they effectively admitted they could not tell the difference between different species of rosewood - can understand the need to control supply - But why limit the sales of used guitars prior to Jan 2017 ? - Again they admitted after, they did not realise a used market place existed for guitars

Whitecat

SunDevil said:

Amazed that rosewood is covered and ebony not? ..thought ebony was more endangered?

Although Taylor is doing a good job managing the Cameroonian ebony supply, there are rumours afoot that ebony is going to be added to CITES II next year. 

At the moment Madagascar ebony *is* protected already. 

designerseye88

guitars4you said:

However if you bring it back on the plane with you, as your own guitar then no paperwork required - but still a good idea to have a receipt with serial number

Is this 100% ok? I looked at doing this myself as it was cheaper to buy the guitar abroad and fly with it back. If customs stop you and want info on the guitar do you just say its been mine for ages? 

Whitecat

designerseye88 said:

guitars4you said:

However if you bring it back on the plane with you, as your own guitar then no paperwork required - but still a good idea to have a receipt with serial number

Is this 100% ok? I looked at doing this myself as it was cheaper to buy the guitar abroad and fly with it back. If customs stop you and want info on the guitar do you just say its been mine for ages? 

You should be declaring it as an import. You will have to pay VAT and duty, but no CITES permits needed if it’s accompanying you. 

Boromedic

If you already own the guitar and are just flying back with it as personal property, for instance you lived abroad with it for a while. You wouldn't have to claim it as an import would you? I'll be doing this later in the year and have no evidence of purchase as it was used. Getting a bit concerned they would consider it an import, it's clearly used? Anyone done this before?

P.s. Sorry for the thread derailment

Whitecat

Boromedic said:

If you already own the guitar and are just flying back with it as personal property, for instance you lived abroad with it for a while. You wouldn't have to claim it as an import would you? I'll be doing this later in the year and have no evidence of purchase as it was used. Getting a bit concerned they would consider it an import, it's clearly used? Anyone done this before?

P.s. Sorry for the thread derailment

In theory Customs can ask for proof it was landed/bought in the U.K. already. It’s your risk to not have that. 

guitars4you

Whitecat said:

designerseye88 said:

guitars4you said:

However if you bring it back on the plane with you, as your own guitar then no paperwork required - but still a good idea to have a receipt with serial number

Is this 100% ok? I looked at doing this myself as it was cheaper to buy the guitar abroad and fly with it back. If customs stop you and want info on the guitar do you just say its been mine for ages? 

You should be declaring it as an import. You will have to pay VAT and duty, but no CITES permits needed if it’s accompanying you. 

it is the crazy part of CITES - you can legally bring it in to the country as your own possession on a  flight - But you can't bring it in to the country via the likes of UPS without a CITES certificate - what the hell is that all about

I had the situation recently with a sale to Jersey - we couldn't ship without all the hassle of a certificate - Instead we shipped to a London address, so he collected the guitar and took it back with him on his next visit on a plane

As @Whitecat states you should declare for customs etc

Rabs

This is all getting a bit weird..  I saw this add on Gibsons online shop for a dropped price SG and it states only available in the USA due to CITES...  Surely if anyone had that certification in place its Gibson?? Or is it just a way to keep the price down?

http://store.gibson.com/products/sg-special-faded-2016-hp-worn-brown/

I haven't bought a new guitar in years.. Does anyone actually supply the CITES docs?

Whitecat

Rabs said:

This is all getting a bit weird..  I saw this add on Gibsons online shop for a dropped price SG and it states only available in the USA due to CITES...  Surely if anyone had that certification in place its Gibson?? Or is it just a way to keep the price down?

http://store.gibson.com/products/sg-special-faded-2016-hp-worn-brown/

I haven't bought a new guitar in years.. Does anyone actually supply the CITES docs?

They don’t want to be arsed doing a new export permit for each guitar sold overseas, basically. The time it takes up is a joke - almost worth it when you’re shipping a pallet of guitars but on individual ones, as a large company, difficult.

Because they are CITES II rather than I they will not come with docs. You would need to apply for new paperwork every time you need to ship it across a border. 

Rabs

Whitecat said:

Rabs said:

This is all getting a bit weird..  I saw this add on Gibsons online shop for a dropped price SG and it states only available in the USA due to CITES...  Surely if anyone had that certification in place its Gibson?? Or is it just a way to keep the price down?

http://store.gibson.com/products/sg-special-faded-2016-hp-worn-brown/

I haven't bought a new guitar in years.. Does anyone actually supply the CITES docs?

They don’t want to be arsed doing a new export permit for each guitar sold overseas, basically. The time it takes up is a joke - almost worth it when you’re shipping a pallet of guitars but on individual ones, as a large company, difficult.

Because they are CITES II rather than I they will not come with docs. You would need to apply for new paperwork every time you need to ship it across a border. 

So currently when you buy a post 2017 guitar with Rosewood from a shop does it come with a certificate?

Cos if you want to apply for a certificate how do you prove where it came from if it doesn't come with any documentation?

Whitecat

Rabs said:

Whitecat said:

Rabs said:

This is all getting a bit weird..  I saw this add on Gibsons online shop for a dropped price SG and it states only available in the USA due to CITES...  Surely if anyone had that certification in place its Gibson?? Or is it just a way to keep the price down?

http://store.gibson.com/products/sg-special-faded-2016-hp-worn-brown/

I haven't bought a new guitar in years.. Does anyone actually supply the CITES docs?

They don’t want to be arsed doing a new export permit for each guitar sold overseas, basically. The time it takes up is a joke - almost worth it when you’re shipping a pallet of guitars but on individual ones, as a large company, difficult.

Because they are CITES II rather than I they will not come with docs. You would need to apply for new paperwork every time you need to ship it across a border. 

So currently when you buy a post 2017 guitar with Rosewood from a shop does it come with a certificate?

Cos if you want to apply for a certificate how do you prove where it came from if it doesn't come with any documentation?

Nope, no cert. I’m not sure what you’d do. Proof of purchase will be needed, perhaps DEFRA/APHA assume that all is above board if it came from a dealer. Genuinely I don’t know. I agree it’s all pretty poorly thought-out. 

guitars4you

I can only comment on new C/Shop models as I don't sell any other new guitars - Yes a new C/Shop Guitar will have a CITES number on the invoice between me/Fender, for both USA export and EU/UK import - I have to keep this number and quote it on my sales invoice to you, along with the serial number - You don't actually get/need a certificate as such - The number on an invoice is all that is required - I'm sure it is/should be standard practice on a new Ibanez Yamaha, Gibson etc etc

Ref used guitars made pre 1/1/17 - I still have to quote on the invoice this guitar is made pre 1/1/17 and is excluded from CITES

guitars4you

Not sure if it will get any further, but I do know for a fact that it is at a discussion stage between the trade, the government and CITES officials, about the exclusion of used guitars that contains rosewood requiring such a certificate - Note this potential exclusion won't apply to Brazilian Rosewood as that is a different story altogether - Can't comment any further until we know more but at least there is a discussion in place

Rabs

guitars4you said:

Not sure if it will get any further, but I do know for a fact that it is at a discussion stage between the trade, the government and CITES officials, about the exclusion of used guitars that contains rosewood requiring such a certificate - Note this potential exclusion won't apply to Brazilian Rosewood as that is a different story altogether - Can't comment any further until we know more but at least there is a discussion in place

Ahh ok..  Thanks...   And yes I have heard them talking about getting musical instruments exempt from the list they have been talking about that since like Jan 2017... It really is quite silly all of this..

I can see that for most people none of this is an issue... BUT if you are say a touring musician you would need to declare and get a certificate for it... I can see that being a right pain for some, but they will be the minority I think..

Whitecat

guitars4you said:

Not sure if it will get any further, but I do know for a fact that it is at a discussion stage between the trade, the government and CITES officials, about the exclusion of used guitars that contains rosewood requiring such a certificate - Note this potential exclusion won't apply to Brazilian Rosewood as that is a different story altogether - Can't comment any further until we know more but at least there is a discussion in place

One of the problems is that CITES only meets every 2 years and rules can only be changed at said meetings (ie, not in the interim) so progress is glacial...