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JerkMoansJerkMoans Frets: 8775
Hey you crazy cats!

Here’s the scenario. Spotted something on another forum I rather liked the look of. Fellow’s up for trades with Custom Shop Strats, among other ephemera.

So I engage, tarting my own strat in a rather fetching shade of Daphne Blue, the one I said I’d keep forever, etc., as pictured.

https://imgur.com/a/QklWk

The chap’s really interested, all going well, until we get to the show and tell stage. I bought it from a v reputable place: think I still have the receipt, but there was no Certificate when I got it, and no original case. It does have a new Hiscox to live in, and more to the point I have - and disclose - an email exchange with a helpful chap at Fender head office in the US confirming the serial number and specs. of the instrument, which I checked out before I bought it.

Well you can see what’s coming: fellow wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole.

Is a bit of paper that anyone with 20 mins and a decent bit of editing software could rattle off really THAT important?

Well, clearly. But why, really? Can people not trust the evidence of their eyes, ears, hands. Backed up by a whole load of circumstantial corroboration? 

Not annoyed or upset. Deals get done or they don’t. Just genuinely a bit baffled.
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Comments

  • Strat_a_tat_tatStrat_a_tat_tat Frets: 2760
    edited April 2018

    I think finding the receipt could be critical for some buyers in this situation.  It would help to eliminate the possibility that the guitar was stolen... say, from a gig - when it was not in its case (and the certificate wasn't present). I think there are a fair few guitars being sold in that kind of scenario.

    If I was the buyer, I'd be suspicious if there was no cert, no original case and no receipt.

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  • where did the original case go - unfortunately i would also be wary - obviously some people would not care but some would be cautious
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  • richardhomerrichardhomer Frets: 24793
    Strat_a_tat_tat said:If I was the buyer, I'd be suspicious if there was no cert, no original case and no receipt.
    So would I....

    The point is, most people who own things like this know that buyers would be suspicious if they’re missing - hence would keep them.

    If they’re not with the guitar, there would have to be a plausible reason - and an appropriate discount.
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  • impmannimpmann Frets: 12649
    And here is why CS Fenders are a bloody albatross as well as a great thing...

    The standard cases weigh the same as the moon and aren't all that. Sorry, but its true... I've never liked them, and having seen one that has been dropped and t it split open, spilling the guitar onto a concrete floor they offer as much protection as a bin bag. The Hiscox *is* an upgrade if you actually want to play the guitar outside of your house.
    Bloody "certificates of authenticity" are dumb. Its marketting bollocks and once you've read it once, it goes back in the case/drawer/box in the loft. Its a piece of paper that means *nothing* really.

    However, if you have such a guitar... they become as important as the guitar itself.

    More shit to store, IMHO - as I'd never use a CS case (or AVRI one) and the certificate means bog all to me. In fact, I know someone who is using the CoA from their Gibson 345 as a coaster in their home studio right now... a good use for it IMHO.

    Sadly, though, if I was paying CS prices for something, I'd expect this junk to be with the guitar. Even though once I'd bought it, I'd have no interest in it. It helps to prove its story - and helps to prove its story should you want to sell it in the future. If the guitar were cheap enough (reflecting the lack of CoA, case and other associated junk) I'd consider buying it... without, it becomes incredibly hard to sell and therefore it needs to be cheap.

    I sympathise... but sadly that's the way it is.
    Never Ever Bloody Anything Ever.

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  • guitars4youguitars4you Frets: 14036
    tFB Trader
    The case will raise suspicion straight away - Fender have not shipped such guitars without the case, so at the point of purchase, as a new guitar the customer expects likewise - Equally I have known a customer want a discount, not take the case and use a decent gig bag

    In the 60's and 70's many brought a new Fender without a USA case - In the 60's and many purchased a Selmer case - in the 70's they purchased whatever home grown UK case was available so in some era's an original case is often rare
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    I'm genuinely baffled about it too - it's far easier to forge a certificate than a guitar. The lack of original case might be an issue, but if there's a sensible explanation then it wouldn't be for me - it's the possibility of theft at some point in the past that would be the concern, not whether the guitar is a fake.

    But if that Strat is the one you said you would keep forever, maybe you should just avoid the problem entirely and do so ;).

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • WezVWezV Frets: 16547

    Don't forget any future seller will need to go through the same rigmarole of convincing a buyer its all okay and not stolen..  


    The first owner may have a good believable reason  for ditching the case and certificate.   The second owner will likely just say the previous owner ditched them. The story sounds a bit more dodgy each time its retold no matter how genuine the deal actually is.


    I would find that receipt.

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  • Fishboy7Fishboy7 Frets: 2178
    I totally agree on the cases. Awful shape, heavy and not great protection.  Mine currently has two busted latches so will be buying a Hiscox for it soon.
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  • JerkMoansJerkMoans Frets: 8775

    I think finding the receipt could be critical for some buyers in this situation.  It would help to eliminate the possibility that the guitar was stolen... say, from a gig - when it was not in its case (and the certificate wasn't present). I think there are a fair few guitars being sold in that kind of scenario.

    If I was the buyer, I'd be suspicious if there was no cert, no original case and no receipt.

    Well I got it from The North American Guitar, who seem about as kosher as they come, and was told it was a trade in form a customer, which I have no cause to doubt.  It was in a pretty crap non-original case and they didn't have a COA which I didn't give a monkeys about - the price may have reflected those absences, I suppose.  The point for me was that I'd bought it from somewhere reputable and - more importantly - that the specifications I received from Fender Custom Shop upon inquiry matched the guitar I was looking at.

    Guess I really need to find that receipt if I wanna flip the thing :D
    Inactivist Lefty Lawyer
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  • JerkMoansJerkMoans Frets: 8775
    where did the original case go - unfortunately i would also be wary - obviously some people would not care but some would be cautious
    Fook knows.  Maybe the previous owner ditched it.  It's more than a decade old.  Stuff happens.
    Inactivist Lefty Lawyer
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  • JerkMoansJerkMoans Frets: 8775
    Strat_a_tat_tat said:If I was the buyer, I'd be suspicious if there was no cert, no original case and no receipt.
    So would I....

    The point is, most people who own things like this know that buyers would be suspicious if they’re missing - hence would keep them.

    If they’re not with the guitar, there would have to be a plausible reason - and an appropriate discount.
    It's the discount point that gets me: for a piece of paper that's intrinsically worthless, entirely capable of being forged, and indeed possible to obtain a replacement for, although the whole process is as I understand it a complete PITA.
    Inactivist Lefty Lawyer
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  • JerkMoansJerkMoans Frets: 8775
    impmann said:
    And here is why CS Fenders are a bloody albatross as well as a great thing...

    The standard cases weigh the same as the moon and aren't all that. Sorry, but its true... I've never liked them, and having seen one that has been dropped and t it split open, spilling the guitar onto a concrete floor they offer as much protection as a bin bag. The Hiscox *is* an upgrade if you actually want to play the guitar outside of your house.
    Bloody "certificates of authenticity" are dumb. Its marketting bollocks and once you've read it once, it goes back in the case/drawer/box in the loft. Its a piece of paper that means *nothing* really.

    However, if you have such a guitar... they become as important as the guitar itself.

    More shit to store, IMHO - as I'd never use a CS case (or AVRI one) and the certificate means bog all to me. In fact, I know someone who is using the CoA from their Gibson 345 as a coaster in their home studio right now... a good use for it IMHO.

    Sadly, though, if I was paying CS prices for something, I'd expect this junk to be with the guitar. Even though once I'd bought it, I'd have no interest in it. It helps to prove its story - and helps to prove its story should you want to sell it in the future. If the guitar were cheap enough (reflecting the lack of CoA, case and other associated junk) I'd consider buying it... without, it becomes incredibly hard to sell and therefore it needs to be cheap.

    I sympathise... but sadly that's the way it is.
    Entirely agree re the Hiscox as an upgrade :)

    Ditto re COAs being marketing bollocks.  But, as this thread demonstrates, of no little importance ...  But I kinda like it that I'm so damn rock n roll I didn't insist on having one.  Even if it does now mean my guitar is practically unsellable :D  
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  • JerkMoansJerkMoans Frets: 8775
    The case will raise suspicion straight away - Fender have not shipped such guitars without the case, so at the point of purchase, as a new guitar the customer expects likewise - Equally I have known a customer want a discount, not take the case and use a decent gig bag

    In the 60's and 70's many brought a new Fender without a USA case - In the 60's and many purchased a Selmer case - in the 70's they purchased whatever home grown UK case was available so in some era's an original case is often rare
    Yikes.  Half my guitars have non-original cases.  Some never came with them in the first place, some I've flogged either to make space or to score a better or more ergonomic replacement.  Couple I've given away.  I can see a whole secondary market here for obtaining replacement cases to rebuild a guitar's provenance before trying to shift it :D
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  • JerkMoansJerkMoans Frets: 8775
    ICBM said:
    I'm genuinely baffled about it too - it's far easier to forge a certificate than a guitar. The lack of original case might be an issue, but if there's a sensible explanation then it wouldn't be for me - it's the possibility of theft at some point in the past that would be the concern, not whether the guitar is a fake.

    But if that Strat is the one you said you would keep forever, maybe you should just avoid the problem entirely and do so ;).
    But where would the fun be in that? :astonished:


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  • JerkMoansJerkMoans Frets: 8775
    WezV said:

    Don't forget any future seller will need to go through the same rigmarole of convincing a buyer its all okay and not stolen..  


    The first owner may have a good believable reason  for ditching the case and certificate.   The second owner will likely just say the previous owner ditched them. The story sounds a bit more dodgy each time its retold no matter how genuine the deal actually is.


    I would find that receipt.

    On it ;)
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  • richardhomerrichardhomer Frets: 24793
    edited April 2018
    JerkMoans said:

    The point is, most people who own things like this know that buyers would be suspicious if they’re missing - hence would keep them.

    If they’re not with the guitar, there would have to be a plausible reason - and an appropriate discount.
    It's the discount point that gets me: for a piece of paper that's intrinsically worthless, entirely capable of being forged, and indeed possible to obtain a replacement for, although the whole process is as I understand it a complete PITA.
    I actually think the case is far more of an issue - even if the owner didn’t like it - common sense tells you a guitar parted from its factory supplied case could be nicked. So you’d keep it to avoid a situation like you’re in when you come to sell.

    This isn’t about whether the guitar is a fake - it’s whether it’s stolen goods....

    Because of this, moving it on will always be an issue. Did you pay the ‘full’ second hand price, or get something off?
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  • JerkMoansJerkMoans Frets: 8775
    Fishboy7 said:
    I totally agree on the cases. Awful shape, heavy and not great protection.  Mine currently has two busted latches so will be buying a Hiscox for it soon.
    Wanna buy one?  Comes with unauthenticated, semi-dodgy Daphne Blue CS Strat ;)
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  • JerkMoansJerkMoans Frets: 8775
    I actually think the case is far more of an issue - even if the owner didn’t like it - common sense tells you a guitar parted from its factory supplied case could be nicked. So you’d keep it to avoid situation like you’re in when you come to sell.

    This isn’t about whether the guitar is a fake - it’s whether it’s stolen goods....

    Because of this, moving it on will always be an issue. Did you pay the ‘full’ second hand price, or get something off?
    It was pretty cheap, well comparatively as against the prices of CS guitars.  It was explained to me - which seemed plausible - that it had been a trade in against one of their high end models (and boy, do TNAG have some high end stuff) which they'd then had kicking around for ages because Fender isn't one of their brands and the customers who go into their store looking for Froggy Bottoms and Ritters and all the rest of it aren't really interested in last turkey in the window stylee Fenders.  Sounded ok to me, anyway.
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  • richardhomerrichardhomer Frets: 24793
    JerkMoans said:
    Did you pay the ‘full’ second hand price, or get something off?
    It was pretty cheap, well comparatively as against the prices of CS guitars.  It was explained to me - which seemed plausible - that it had been a trade in against one of their high end models (and boy, do TNAG have some high end stuff) which they'd then had kicking around for ages because Fender isn't one of their brands and the customers who go into their store looking for Froggy Bottoms and Ritters and all the rest of it aren't really interested in last turkey in the window stylee Fenders.  Sounded ok to me, anyway.
    I’m in no way having a go - but what does it matter what they part-ex’d It against? That doesn’t explain where the case and certificate went. And they let you have it for less than a ‘complete’ one, by the sounds of it.

    I think buying anything that ‘should’ come with certain things but doesn’t, is always a risk. Personally I wouldn’t touch it either....
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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 31368
    The point is, if you're in a buyer's position and the vendor is not prepared to strip the guitar down next to a laptop for reference, you're potentially buying a stolen partscaster with a Custom Shop neck, and the price will reflect that.  

    We're a pretty nerdy bunch on here, but how many average punters can identify a Custom Shop body, scratchplate or pickups from the outside? I know I can't.

    A COA and original case with tools, receipts and everything else are certainly not absolute proof of authenticity, but if they're all there combined with a nice, normal seller it's good enough to get full market value.  
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