Gibson being sued for $50 million

StuartMac290

Maybe Gibson will counter-sue for them being shit.

ellwood

Anything that creates employment opportunities for honest, hard-working lawyers is to be applauded, imho  

@JerkMoans ;Oxymoron overload...

JerkMoans

ellwood said:

Anything that creates employment opportunities for honest, hard-working lawyers is to be applauded, imho  

@JerkMoans ;Oxymoron overload...

Thanks for the offer man, but I’m not that into designer drugs.

WezV

guitars4you said:

In essence Tronicals best bet of success was to have the tuners on a guitar with some major builder or another - If they had just marketed them as an aftermarket accessory, then I dare say the large majority of us would have shown no interest in removing our traditional Kluson, Grover, Schaller models, from our SG, LP or 335, for some electronic wizardry  - As such the product would have achieved little success anyway !!!!!!!!!!!!!

i followed them since prior to Gibson taking them away from the rest of us.  They were an aftermarket accessory that a lot of us guitar builder types were quite excited by,although it was clear the technology was in its early days.

I remember the first tronical units being made for fender guitars, where straighter string pull helps make the system a lot more reliable

Then Gibson got involved and that technology wasn't available easily to anyone else.  They put it  on a few very expensive and ridiculous guitars between 2005 and 2013.  I would be surprised if that shifted more than a thousand units.   Gibson demanded exclusivity, and did next to  nothing with it

it actually started to improve when they put it on more of the range.  The 2015 system was better than the 2013 one, and the 2016 improved even more... not just the tech, but pairing it with appropriate design choices.

I honestly think the tech will have been forgiven if it hadn't been forced on a whole range with other questionable design choices.  It wasn't perfect by any stretch, but came a long way in what was really only 3 years of design revisions whilst in active use at gibson.

p90fool

The problem now for Tronical is they've upped production capacity to enable them to be fitted to every guitar on the Nashville production line, but now they're no longer being fitted to many Gibsons and worse, the dumping of many thousands of unwanted tuners onto the used market has doubtless killed their aftermarket sales too. 

It's a classic Tesco/niche farmer relationship. 

Tronical should have stayed small, realistically accepting that their product is of interest to almost nobody and is a bit crap. They could've serviced their tiny natural market of non-Luddite alt tuning players quite successfully - world domination was always stupidity optimistic. 

impmann

p90fool said:

The problem now for Tronical is they've upped production capacity to enable them to be fitted to every guitar on the Nashville production line, but now they're no longer being fitted to many Gibsons and worse, the dumping of many thousands of unwanted tuners onto the used market has doubtless killed their aftermarket sales too. 

It's a classic Tesco/niche farmer relationship. 

Tronical should have stayed small, realistically accepting that their product is of interest to almost nobody and is a bit crap. They could've serviced their tiny natural market of non-Luddite alt tuning players quite successfully - world domination was always stupidity optimistic. 

Yup, this.

I'm not a fan of the product, tbh - for me, personally, it solves a problem I don't actually have. But I can see that as an aftermarket gizmo with the right marketing, it could have become pretty big - especially amoung guys who use lots of alt tunings, as its a lot more elegant than the Hipshot multituning bridge for example.

Bunging them on Gibsons - a brand known for its small c conservative following - wasn't a good move, IMHO.

Octafish

Wow, wonder what the implications are with regards to 2015 wideneck licensing, could be a lawsuit from Phillips Cleartone next

beed84

Costs and benefits. To be unburdened with the responsibility of creating such a woeful piece of technology is easily worth $50 million of additional debt. I’d file this part of the saga under “Redemption: Let off the Hook”.

Fretwired

beed84 said:

Costs and benefits. To be unburdened with the responsibility of creating such a woeful piece of technology is easily worth $50 million of additional debt. I’d file this part of the saga under “Redemption: Let off the Hook”.

Problem is Gibson don't have $50 million in cash floating around and the threat of this lawsuit will affect negotiations with existing creditors and banks. The Gibson Group needs cash and more time to pay down some of the debt. This could be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

And who knows .. out of the wreckage maybe Tronical will buy Gibson Guitars and put its tuners on every model ... :-)

Bigsby

p90fool said:

their product is of interest to almost nobody and is a bit crap. They could've serviced their tiny natural market of non-Luddite alt tuning players quite successfully - world domination was always stupidity optimistic. 

I agree with most of what you're saying, apart from those two points:

We have no idea how many people are interested in these tuners - sure, there's a lot of negative talk, but much of it comes from people who've spend no time at all using them. There are people who are happily using them - but they tend not to be very vocal on guitar forums. G-Force tuners taken from new Gibsons have been selling for a decent price on Ebay - so someone must be wanting to buy them. We can't assume how big the market is, or how big it might've been if approached differently. But the product is so well developed, I suspect they needed a major manufacturer onboard to get it where it is.

Also, describing them as 'a bit crap' is highly subjective. I've owned three Gibsons with these tuners, and never had a single issue. They can be fitted to/removed from guitars with no modification at all, they're unobtrusive (from the front), the batteries last for months on a charge, and give plenty of warning of low charge, and they have a wide range of adjustment and calibration. They can even be used as conventional tuners (albeit rather crap feeling ones). From another perspective, they're an amazingly well engineered piece of technology, and ingeniously designed too. My first Tronical was a MinEtune, and I upgraded to a G-Force, patiently watching Ebay until I could grab one at a low price, and then selling the MinEtune in turn. The upgrade cost me £20, and fitting took about 10 minutes - just as easy as swapping tuners.

As for Tronical - I suspect there's something going badly wrong at their end: I've been interested in getting a Tronical Plus for a MiM Strat - it needs better tuners, and retuning a floating trem is a PITA. Recently I saw they were selling the Strat models at a discount - not much more than decent locking tuners, so I ordered one. It was faulty. Took a few days to get a response to a support ticket, and I decided to ask for a refund. A few days later they arranged for the return, but the refund never came. I sent multiple emails, no response. I opened a case with Paypal, and it seems they didn't get a response either; once Tronical's time to respond expired, I got my money back. So, with appalling customer service like that - I don't think they'll survive losing Gibson's business.

Whitecat

Guys on guitar forums don't want them.

Middle-class soccer moms buying Gibsons in Guitar Centers across America as gifts for their 12-year old kids who are just about to start lessons on the other hand probably can be *easily* convinced they are the greatest innovation in history.

impmann

Bigsby said:

p90fool said:

their product is of interest to almost nobody and is a bit crap. They could've serviced their tiny natural market of non-Luddite alt tuning players quite successfully - world domination was always stupidity optimistic. 

I agree with most of what you're saying, apart from those two points:

We have no idea how many people are interested in these tuners - sure, there's a lot of negative talk, but much of it comes from people who've spend no time at all using them. There are people who are happily using them - but they tend not to be very vocal on guitar forums. G-Force tuners taken from new Gibsons have been selling for a decent price on Ebay - so someone must be wanting to buy them. We can't assume how big the market is, or how big it might've been if approached differently. But the product is so well developed, I suspect they needed a major manufacturer onboard to get it where it is.

Also, describing them as 'a bit crap' is highly subjective. I've owned three Gibsons with these tuners, and never had a single issue. They can be fitted to/removed from guitars with no modification at all, they're unobtrusive (from the front), the batteries last for months on a charge, and give plenty of warning of low charge, and they have a wide range of adjustment and calibration. They can even be used as conventional tuners (albeit rather crap feeling ones). From another perspective, they're an amazingly well engineered piece of technology, and ingeniously designed too. My first Tronical was a MinEtune, and I upgraded to a G-Force, patiently watching Ebay until I could grab one at a low price, and then selling the MinEtune in turn. The upgrade cost me £20, and fitting took about 10 minutes - just as easy as swapping tuners.

As for Tronical - I suspect there's something going badly wrong at their end: I've been interested in getting a Tronical Plus for a MiM Strat - it needs better tuners, and retuning a floating trem is a PITA. Recently I saw they were selling the Strat models at a discount - not much more than decent locking tuners, so I ordered one. It was faulty. Took a few days to get a response to a support ticket, and I decided to ask for a refund. A few days later they arranged for the return, but the refund never came. I sent multiple emails, no response. I opened a case with Paypal, and it seems they didn't get a response either; once Tronical's time to respond expired, I got my money back. So, with appalling customer service like that - I don't think they'll survive losing Gibson's business.

Actually, having owned a 2015 Junior with them fitted... I'd describe them as 'a bit crap'.

I'm sure some people like them but I found them slow to operate, intermittently inacurate and cumbersome. Just tuning the guitar to regular took *longer* than me doing it by ear, or chucking a Snark on the headstock (and they aren't the quickest to respond tuner of all time).

But yes, they do work sometimes, so they aren't complete crap... just a bit.

Fretwired

I've never had a guitar with them fitted as I can't see what problem they address that can't be solved by a well set-up guitar with decent tuners - I tend to go for locking tuners and on the main guitars I use (Strats) I don't have a tuning problem.

My local guitar tech offers a removal service and says he has been inundated - this tells me that for whatever reason people don't like them. It could be they don't work properly, are too fiddly to use or its simply guitarists are too conservative and resistant to change. Jimi didn't have have them so why should I ...

JerkMoans

Had G Force tuners on a Gibbo I scored for a bit but they weren’t for me: there’s clearly a thriving market for the things out there as I got £60 for them on eBay, which nicely covered the cost of a set of Grovers. Marmitey things.

ICBM

JerkMoans said:

Had G Force tuners on a Gibbo I scored for a bit but they weren’t for me: there’s clearly a thriving market for the things out there as I got £60 for them on eBay, which nicely covered the cost of a set of Grovers. Marmitey things.

Yes, and given that they're not that easy to fit to a guitar which wasn't built for them - there's not only the nut issue, but the headstock must be drilled with exactly the correct spacing for the posts, which not all Gibsons are by a long way - that suggests that most of them are being bought as replacements for broken ones.

It seems like both companies made a big mistake with their arrangement, and that Gibson probably expected profits they then couldn't deliver. Which is entirely typical of Henry Juszkiewicz...

rossi

I have em on my Midtown and love em .They work if you practice using them a bit .Most problems seem to be arrive if you keep the button pressed too long and it starts scrolling .As many new expensive guitars still need a nut job before they stay in tune   etc I expect many G force faults are in reality something else.I just tune and play not fuck about worrying about tuners,half the critics probably cant play and dont own a guitar anyway .Its  the web folks .

Bigsby

Fretwired said:

I've never had a guitar with them...

My local guitar tech offers a removal service and says he has been inundated ...

ICBM said:

Yes, and given that they're not that easy to fit to a guitar which wasn't built for them - there's not only the nut issue, but the headstock must be drilled with exactly the correct spacing for the posts, which not all Gibsons are by a long way - that suggests that most of them are being bought as replacements for broken ones.

So no surprises here... This is why you tend not to hear anything positive said about Tronical on guitar forums - you get met by a bunch of hostile responses, even from people who've never actually used one.

Great news for your guitar tech - but slightly sad that there are so many guitarists who don't know what a spanner is. Seriously, replacing a Tronical is possibly the easiest thing you can do to modify your guitar. Hardly more challenging than changing strings - yet your guitar tech is 'inundated' with this work? Oh well, at least he's making money... And presumably so are Gibson, if they're selling enough new HP models to spanner-less guitarists. And imagine just how many more must they be selling to guitarists who aren't entirely clueless.

As for the idea that people are buying all the used Tronical tuners as replacements for faulty ones.... just, WHY?
Ridiculous. If your Tonical tuner broke so quickly, wouldn't you just buy some locking tuners & forget about it? I know I would! And how were used G-Force tuners selling well in 2015, when they were all still under warranty??? 

FWIW, Tronical tuners are easy to fit - as long as you have the right model (there are many available), and it's easy to download a template to check the fit if you need to. The one I bought for the Strat was a perfect fit, no drilling, no issues. And I guarantee Fender didn't build it for a Tronical Plus! 

OK, with that said, I know there's no point in 'defending robotuners' on a guitar forum... Hands up. Resistance is futile, I surrender.

ICBM

Bigsby said:

So no surprises here... This is why you tend not to hear anything positive said about Tronical on guitar forums - you get met by a bunch of hostile responses, even from people who've never actually used one.

Used one that worked - no. Removed two faulty ones from guitars for customers - yes.

Bigsby said:

Great news for your guitar tech - but slightly sad that there are so many guitarists who don't know what a spanner is. Seriously, replacing a Tronical is possibly the easiest thing you can do to modify your guitar.

If you want standard machineheads fitting, a lot of owners aren't confident about drilling six or twelve screw holes into their expensive guitar.

Or replacing the nut with a bone one, if they want that done at the same time.

Bigsby said:

As for the idea that people are buying all the used Tronical tuners as replacements for faulty ones.... just, WHY?
Ridiculous. If your Tonical tuner broke so quickly, wouldn't you just buy some locking tuners & forget about it?

Well, if I was one of the people who does actually like them, and knowing their tendency to break and the possibility that the company might not be around forever, I would not only want to replace it with another unit, I would probably want to get some spare parts for the future as well.

I would suggest you do so, in fact.

Bigsby said:

OK, with that said, I know there's no point in 'defending robotuners' on a guitar forum... Hands up. Resistance is futile, I surrender.

You could start by understanding the real issues they have, rather than just labelling anyone who doesn't think they're a good idea as an ignorant Luddite.

Stuckfast

I love mine. Yes there are downsides and a few glitches, but the basic concept works very well IMO. And although they feel a bit weird to tune manually, the extremely low gearing means it's much easier to fine-tune the guitar than on most manual tuners.

WezV

ICBM said:

JerkMoans said:

Had G Force tuners on a Gibbo I scored for a bit but they weren’t for me: there’s clearly a thriving market for the things out there as I got £60 for them on eBay, which nicely covered the cost of a set of Grovers. Marmitey things.

Yes, and given that they're not that easy to fit to a guitar which wasn't built for them - there's not only the nut issue, but the headstock must be drilled with exactly the correct spacing for the posts, which not all Gibsons are by a long way - that suggests that most of them are being bought as replacements for broken ones.

I think you are making quite an assumption on that one.   Firstly, you are assuming those who buy them realise Gibson's tuner spacing can be all over the place.   Most Gibson owners probably never consider that at all.  They see them on one Gibson and will assume they fit another.   Many do this with all other parts, so why would the tronical tuners be any different

My assumption would be that most purchases  are intended to go straight on a guitar, but a proportion of them probably end up in a drawer because they don't quite fit.  

I think replacements will be around for a while, reappearing on ebay every time someone finds a set in the parts drawer that didn't quite fit