Soloing over A major to C major?

imalrightjack

Hi all,

Just wondering how you might approach a solo over a chord progression as follows:

| A | C | Esus4 | E |

It's played at a reasonable tempo, around 130bpm I guess.

Forgive my ignorance if I'm wrong but it doesn't fit into any of the harmonised major scales so would you just switch from A major into C major and back (i.e. just C major for the one bar)?  I'm okay working around the triads with the occasional extra note but it's not smooth or intuitive.

Any thoughts welcome.

matt1973

A minor pentatonic is the most simple answer. With carte Blanche to throw in the major third and expand to a full Dorian jerk-off if desired.

Harmonically speaking, the C chord is born from harmonising a blues scale. It's a stock rock progression.

octatonic

Target chord tones.

Soloing one scale over two chords is fine when you are learning but you need to move on from it fairly quickly if you don't want to get stuck in pentatonic-wank-land... forever.

imalrightjack

matt1973 said:

A minor pentatonic is the most simple answer. With carte Blanche to throw in the major third and expand to a full Dorian jerk-off if desired.

Harmonically speaking, the C chord is born from harmonising a blues scale. It's a stock rock progression.

The minor third sounds awful over the A major though so it isn't that simple, at least to my ears.

octatonic said:

Target chord tones.

Soloing one scale over two chords is fine when you are learning but you need to move on from it fairly quickly if you don't want to get stuck in pentatonic-wank-land... forever.

Can you expand on 'chord tones'?

I've lived in pentatonic wank land for over 20 years.  Need to escape...

octatonic

imalrightjack said:

matt1973 said:

A minor pentatonic is the most simple answer. With carte Blanche to throw in the major third and expand to a full Dorian jerk-off if desired.

Harmonically speaking, the C chord is born from harmonising a blues scale. It's a stock rock progression.

The minor third sounds awful over the A major though so it isn't that simple, at least to my ears.

Which is why targeting chord tones is the way to go forward.

Well, it isn't the only reason, but it is a good one.

imalrightjack

Can you expand on what you mean by 'chord tones'?

Cirrus

I tend to play about one note a day so my advice will be shit and un-informative, but in that kind of situation if there's not a specific melodic idea to guide me I like to find any notes that are common between the different chords - in this case E is the 5th in Amaj and maj3rd in Cmaj, and other notes that will emphasise the harmonic shift. so in this case, Csharp and C, A and G. So I'd use E as a kind of pivot note to tie together A maj and C maj, and C/Csharp as a way of signifying to the listener that the part has shifted with the chord.

Tunez

Your simplest option, and the one with least chance of error, is A Pentatonic Minor (1, b3, 4, 5, b7 which gives A,C D,E,G) throughout. Whilst not hugely sophisticated, this is your 'safe' place and most guitarists have their maximum dexterity/fluidity here. Considering (very briefly) each chord:

A Triad (A has 3 sharps: F,C,G) (HOME:The I Chord)

A is the tonic, no surprises!

C natural, the flattened mediant (minor 3rd) in A, creates a 'blusey' tension over the major triad and you can, of course, resolve to the C# on the tonic triad when you want to. lots of classic flavour.

D is the subdominant (4th), diatonic, but lame. Pass through but don't sit. You'll hear it no need to worry about this.

E is the dominant (5th). Diatonic, extra safe and strong.

G is the flattened leading note (b7th). This creates dominant 7th chord with the triad of the harmony, cool with lots of classic flavours.

C Triad (C has no sharps or flats)

A is the Submediant (6th), Cool 'Country' flavoured, creates a C6 chord…all good

C is the tonic, no surprises!

D is the 9th, diatonic, a very pretty extension

E is the mediant, safe, safe, safe...

G  is the dominant (5th). Diatonic, extra safe and strong.

Tunez

E Triad (E has 4 sharps: F,C,G,D) (The V Chord)

A  is the 11th. Because E is the 5th of the key of the song this is not as lame as the 4th in A.

C This is the b13th in the key of E. Very fruity, because E is the V chord here the b13 provides some 'altered' sounds. Put simply the V chord will tolerate a lot of tension because it's going to resolve to the I chord, an 'altered' tone provides this. A favourite of guitarists, the 7#9 chord in the V chord position, works in precisely this way.

D is the flattened leading note (b7th). This creates dominant 7th chord with the triad of the harmony, very cool, you are reinforcing the feel of the V chord (E) and strengthening its cadence to the I chord (A)

E  is the tonic, no surprises!

G  natural, the flattened mediant (minor 3rd) in E, creates a 'blusey' tension over the major triad and you can, of course, resolve to the G# of the triad when you want to. lots of classic flavour.

Don't worry about the sus4 chord at this stage, consider it an ornament to the E, a passing chord, not essential.

There is an awful lot more analysis possible of course, this is only 5 notes after all-not even a full scale! there are a lot more options, but this will get you started (and in reality, outside of Jazz etc, this probably covers 95% of everything one ever hears!). Coupled with the triad arps that you're already using, you should be well away. Make nice Tunez…

matt1973

It's a very parallel sounding progression. If executed well my initial advise should sound quite Stones'esque - if that's not your vibe then fair enough. 

Personally I wouldn't move my scales with the chords as this would accentuate its parallel-ness (bad and unmusical).

Try using A major mode for the chords that sit in A major and use a G arpeggio over the C oddball. That would make a nicer juxtaposition. To my ears anyway.

octatonic

imalrightjack said:

Can you expand on what you mean by 'chord tones'?

Chord tones are the notes of the chord you might be playing at at particular point.

Over the A chord you have A C# E.

Over the C chord you have CEG.

They have the note E in common but as you say the C and C# differs from one chord to the next.

Think about what notes you can add into the two major chords- perhaps playing a dominant arpeggio (with a b7) would sound nice (it does).

Justin Sandercoe has a good lesson on targeting chord tones- check his site.

HAL9000

As others have already said, this appears to be Am pentatonic for soloing and is certainly your 'safe house' if you need it. However, it's then a case of thinking through what notes to play/avoid over certain chords. The main one (which you've already mentioned) is the C note over the A major chord. Though here you could consider playing the C and then sliding, bending, or hammering-on to bring it to the C#. Also considering using the B note over the E chord.

Someone once told me that the pentatonic scales are like normal scales but with the 'difficult' notes removed. Feel free to put them back in. In the above example I'd probably consider a scale like A, B, C, C#, D, E, G, A, and then spending time working out some licks that work.

octatonic

HAL9000 said:

Someone once told me that the pentatonic scales are normal scales with the 'difficult' notes removed. 

Sort of, yes.

You could think of the major 9th as an 'easy note' in most situations though.

The major 9th pulls heavily towards the tonic of course.

Tunez

HAL9000 said:

As others have already said, this appears to be Am pentatonic for soloing and is certainly your 'safe house' if you need it. However, it's then a case of thinking through what notes to play/avoid over certain chords. The main one (which you've already mentioned) is the C note over the A major chord. Though here you could consider playing the C and then sliding, bending, or hammering-on to bring it to the C#. Also considering using the B note over the E chord.

Someone once told me that the pentatonic scales are normal scales with the 'difficult' notes removed. Feel free to put them back in. In the above example I'd probably consider a scale like A, B, C, C#, D, E, G,. A

You definitely DON'T need to worry about the C natural over the A triad, it will function perfectly well. Minor over major rocks, in fact it IS rock. Major over minor, well, that's truly awful and almost unfixable in most cases!

matt1973

Tunez said:

HAL9000 said:

As others have already said, this appears to be Am pentatonic for soloing and is certainly your 'safe house' if you need it. However, it's then a case of thinking through what notes to play/avoid over certain chords. The main one (which you've already mentioned) is the C note over the A major chord. Though here you could consider playing the C and then sliding, bending, or hammering-on to bring it to the C#. Also considering using the B note over the E chord.

Someone once told me that the pentatonic scales are normal scales with the 'difficult' notes removed. Feel free to put them back in. In the above example I'd probably consider a scale like A, B, C, C#, D, E, G,. A

You definitely DON'T need to worry about the C natural over the A triad, it will function perfectly well. Minor over major rocks, in fact it IS rock. Major over minor, well, that's truly awful and almost unfixable in most cases!

Quite. The fact that the OP didn't like that sound led me to think that there maybe something in the melody that implies an Amaj7 - it is the obvious instance that would cause C note to sound bad.

HAL9000

Tunez said:

HAL9000 said:

As others have already said, this appears to be Am pentatonic for soloing and is certainly your 'safe house' if you need it. However, it's then a case of thinking through what notes to play/avoid over certain chords. The main one (which you've already mentioned) is the C note over the A major chord. Though here you could consider playing the C and then sliding, bending, or hammering-on to bring it to the C#. Also considering using the B note over the E chord.

Someone once told me that the pentatonic scales are normal scales with the 'difficult' notes removed. Feel free to put them back in. In the above example I'd probably consider a scale like A, B, C, C#, D, E, G,. A

You definitely DON'T need to worry about the C natural over the A triad, it will function perfectly well. Minor over major rocks, in fact it IS rock. Major over minor, well, that's truly awful and almost unfixable in most cases!

Actually yes, I agree, but went along with the original poster here since he seemed to be keen to avoid the C natural. I was trying to offer up some alternatives.

matt1973

octatonic said:

HAL9000 said:

Someone once told me that the pentatonic scales are normal scales with the 'difficult' notes removed. 

Sort of, yes.

You could think of the major 9th as an 'easy note' in most situations though.

The major 9th pulls heavily towards the tonic of course.

I would be tempted the doctor that description to 'normal scales with their modal characteristics removed' hence there is only major and minor (unless you superimpose them).

Tunez

matt1973 said:

A minor pentatonic is the most simple answer. With carte Blanche to throw in the major third and expand to a full Dorian jerk-off if desired.

Just to clarify: if you take a minor pentatonic and raise the minor third to a major third, the resulting pentatonic implies Mixolydian (i.e. 1,3,4,5,b7) not Dorian (which would be 1,b3,4,5,b7).

This particular pentatonic (the Mix one that is) was very prevalent in later Beatles material, I think it's still a very hip sound.

Tunez

The minor third sounds awful over the A major though so it isn't that simple, at least to my ears.

Can you expand on 'chord tones'?

I've lived in pentatonic wank land for over 20 years.  Need to escape...

I'm I intrigued as to why the -3 sounds so wrong over your progression...I can dig that you may be sick of that sound, but for it to sound wrong, based on the info you supplied is odd...

Anyhow, 'chord tone wise', the G# from the V chord is perhaps the most powerful (if blunt) tool you have here. The fact that it's the exclusive property of the V chord and the leading note to the tonic triad makes it a huge 'turnaround' signpost' and if you begin to dip into it over the C (where it is the b13) the resulting sound will feel more jazzy and 'outside'...try and stay off it over the A triad though, the resulting maj7 chord will sound lame and weaken your progression.

imalrightjack

Tunez said:

The minor third sounds awful over the A major though so it isn't that simple, at least to my ears.

I'm I intrigued as to why the -3 sounds so wrong over your progression...I can dig that you may be sick of that sound, but for it to sound wrong, based on the info you supplied is odd...

If I were noodling quickly over it (in 8th/16th notes), I suspect it would sound fine.  The progression is best-suited to longer held notes so landing on the C over the A major sounds flat-out bad.

octatonic

imalrightjack said:

Tunez said:

The minor third sounds awful over the A major though so it isn't that simple, at least to my ears.

I'm I intrigued as to why the -3 sounds so wrong over your progression...I can dig that you may be sick of that sound, but for it to sound wrong, based on the info you supplied is odd...

If I were noodling quickly over it (in 8th/16th notes), I suspect it would sound fine.  The progression is best-suited to longer held notes so landing on the C over the A major sounds flat-out bad.

This is where phrasing comes into it.

The problem with scales, as a conduit to musical improvisation, is that certain notes of a scale have greater weighting than the other notes.

It should come as no surprise that mostly the notes of greater weighting are the chord tones.

If you start off on uneven ground, where you are trying to think of what notes of a scale are better than others then it is difficult to get a handle on it.

The downside for you, now, is you basically want to forget largely about scales and try to improvise with chord tones as your starting point.

If you were my student then I'd give you a bunch of exercises to play, a small mental game to work through when you weren't playing the guitar (harmonising chord progressions in your head) and transcribing a lot.

Then transcribing some more.

Seriously- learn some solo's- learn a lot of them.

Then analyse them against the chord progression they are played over.

You will learn WAY more doing this than you will trying to get better at improvising just using scales as your basis.

Transcription is really where it is at- it is the long way round but it informs your harmonic knowledge, your phrasing- so many other areas of your playing.