Iran, Trump and Netem... neti...netyny...

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  • DominicDominic Frets: 3344
    My anecdotal experience is that the Israelis I've known (through working for an Israeli company for a few years) are more Arab than European in their outlook regardless of their religion or where their parents came from. They aren't very complimentary about western jewish people who emigrate to Israel. 

    As people, I've liked every Israeli I've ever met. I wasn't too fond of the way they do business. 


    So absolutely correct .......it's actually very hard to tell who is Jewish Israeli and who is Arab unless they are obvious religious nuts ( which very few Israelis are ). A huge number of Israeli Jews are from  Lebanon,Egypt, Iraq ,Morocco and Iran .They all tend to speak Ivrit and Arabic ,eat the same food ,similar family lifestyle and have a very similar mindset. In fact both are very laid back and especially easy going .
    The suburbs of Tel Aviv are perfectly happy mixed Jewish and Arab streets with no more friction than there is between streets in London where Mr Smith lives next door to Mr Patel on one side and the Chong family on the other.
     You are also absolutely correct that Israelis do not especially like  Western Ashkenazi Jews and have more in common with Arabs especially quasi-Jews like the Samaritans who are effectively Palestinians although Jewish by faith and live in the Samarian part of the West Bank close to Mount Gezarim .
     The similarities of the Abrahamic faiths are so obvious when you see them side by side but isn't it just so true that the closest of neighbours can be the worst of enemies . Sad.
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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 12714
    Stop that right away.  There will be no normalisation of Trumpish on this forum.
    98% shouting at clouds and 2% laminate flooring
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  • MarshallMarshall Frets: 114
    edited May 7
    Dominic said:
    VimFuego said:
    scrumhalf said:
    ICBM said:

     I very much suspect the US having Israels back is a far bigger deterrent than nukes. 
    "....Hamas controlled Gaza which is effectively a Terrorist controlled commune....."

    No love for Hamas, but with an estimated population of nearly 1.8 million as of mid 2017, 45% of which is 0-14 years of age, it does seem a tad overreaching to refer to Gaza as a "commune"...
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  • ChalkyChalky Frets: 5096
    Does anyone trust Netanyahu?  I get the feeling that Little Binny won the jackpot when Trump got elected.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10684
    Chalky said:
    Does anyone trust Netanyahu?  I get the feeling that Little Binny won the jackpot when Trump got elected.
    Binny wouldn't have done badly had Clinton been elected. Sanders on the other hand would have been a tad spiky. Trump is however a giant-sized Easter bunny of love. 
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15343
    Chalky said:
    Does anyone trust Netanyahu?  I get the feeling that Little Binny won the jackpot when Trump got elected.
    Binny wouldn't have done badly had Clinton been elected. Sanders on the other hand would have been a tad spiky. Trump is however a giant-sized Easter bunny of love


    Not sure ... current ideas (radio news) seem to think Trump will pull out of Iran agreement but Europe won't (with Trump's blessing). Europe will continue to trade with Iran and act as a buffer with the USA.  Trump will have signalled his support for Israel and will get them to stand down. The objective is to prevent war and chaos. Iran is still working on long range missiles and the head of their nuclear research body says they could start enriching uranium within five days. This is what worries the Israelis.

    As I have said elsewhere Trump doesn't seem to like war ....
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10684
    Fretwired said:
    Chalky said:
    Does anyone trust Netanyahu?  I get the feeling that Little Binny won the jackpot when Trump got elected.
    Binny wouldn't have done badly had Clinton been elected. Sanders on the other hand would have been a tad spiky. Trump is however a giant-sized Easter bunny of love


    Not sure ... current ideas (radio news) seem to think Trump will pull out of Iran agreement but Europe won't (with Trump's blessing). Europe will continue to trade with Iran and act as a buffer with the USA.  Trump will have signalled his support for Israel and will get them to stand down. The objective is to prevent war and chaos. Iran is still working on long range missiles and the head of their nuclear research body says they could start enriching uranium within five days. This is what worries the Israelis.

    As I have said elsewhere Trump doesn't seem to like war ....

    He likes impact events rather than war. The strikes on Syria, the MOAB attack on Afghanistan. 

    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15343
    Fretwired said:
    Chalky said:
    Does anyone trust Netanyahu?  I get the feeling that Little Binny won the jackpot when Trump got elected.
    Binny wouldn't have done badly had Clinton been elected. Sanders on the other hand would have been a tad spiky. Trump is however a giant-sized Easter bunny of love


    Not sure ... current ideas (radio news) seem to think Trump will pull out of Iran agreement but Europe won't (with Trump's blessing). Europe will continue to trade with Iran and act as a buffer with the USA.  Trump will have signalled his support for Israel and will get them to stand down. The objective is to prevent war and chaos. Iran is still working on long range missiles and the head of their nuclear research body says they could start enriching uranium within five days. This is what worries the Israelis.

    As I have said elsewhere Trump doesn't seem to like war ....

    He likes impact events rather than war. The strikes on Syria, the MOAB attack on Afghanistan. 

    Syria was for show. Plenty of warning then a limited attack on some empty buildings.

    This is looking like a power play to force Iran back to the table to stop their missile programme ..

    From the Times (extract)

    Rouhani had suggested it was possible that a Trump decision to nix the deal might not end it automatically, especially if Europe was able to continue trading with Tehran.

    “Either what we want from the nuclear deal is guaranteed by the non-American parties, or it is not the case and we will follow our own path,” he said on the presidency website.

    Today, at a meeting with oil industry representatives, he appeared to play down the consequences of Mr Trump’s decision.

    “It is possible that we will face some problems for two or three months, but we will pass through this,” he said.

    Seeking assurances about Britain’s response to a US withdrawal, Iran has been told that the UK will seek to remain in the pact, a Foreign Office source said. Mr Rouhani’s remarks represented a “potentially significant shift” from earlier threats to collapse the deal, the source added.

    Mr Trump has criticised the nuclear pact as “insane”, saying that new controls were needed to curb Iran’s missile development, its long-term nuclear ambitions, its support for groups such as Hezbollah and its interventions in countries including Syria and Yemen.

    If he scraps the deal, Mr Trump has several options. The process could begin with the president refusing to sign a new 120-day waiver on US sanctions on Iran’s central bank, opening the way for Congress to restore them. However, he would have to wait 180 days before the toughest measures started to bite: targeting banks of foreign countries that continue to buy Iranian oil.

    A separate set of sanctions waivers are up for renewal on July 11, focusing on more than 400 Iranian companies, individuals and business sectors. If Mr Trump decides to act aggressively he could set out to reimpose all these sanctions at an accelerated pace. Alternatively, he could sign the central bank sanctions waiver with new conditions, giving a window to try to negotiate stronger restraints on Iran. Uncertainty over the future of the deal is already hurting the Iranian economy.

    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10684
    For show = for impact. Little actual damage, makes him look like a tough guy. 

    Sounds an awful lot like Trump wants Europe to do the deal and the work with Iran whilst he sits back and will take some credit for it. In fact, much like the current situation with the two Koreas. 
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10684
    Boom. Hopefully not literally. 
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15343
    Everyone's heading back to the negotiating table ... no war this week.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15343
    edited May 9
    Maybe Trump's not so dumb. Benjamin Netanyahu was in Moscow today for the annual military parade and meetings with Putin about Syria and Iran. The last thing we need is Israel and Russia forming an alliance to go after Iran. Trump obviously knew about the meeting in advance.

    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10684
    Fretwired said:
    Maybe Trump's not so dumb. Benjamin Netanyahu was in Moscow today for the annual military parade and meetings with Putin about Syria and Iran. The last thing we need is Israel and Russia forming an alliance to go after Iran. Trump obviously knew about the meeting in advance.

    Earlier in the year Putin made some comments that a few in America took umbrage at. However it was notable that several newspapers, including the centrist Jerusalem Post and the left leaning Ha'aretz were far less bothered. 

    https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-is-vladimir-putin-an-anti-semite-or-friend-of-the-jews-1.5890733

    https://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Accusing-Putin-of-antisemitism-545129

    The central idea is that Putin believes the collapse of the Soviet Union was partly down to the anti-Jewish policies of regimes past. The Washington Institute, a pro-Israeli think tank, comes up with a good article and a very telling quote:

    "The most prominent opposition party Putin allows is the Liberal Democratic Party, headed by known antisemite Vladimir Zhirinovsky, who was a presidential candidate this year. This type of antisemitic undercurrent was always useful to Putin. By comparison, he appears as a far better, saner alternative. At the same time, it helps bolster his anti-Western narrative, rallies nationalism, and appeals to both the far right and far left."

    Ties are clearly strong. I didn't know Russian was the third commonest language in Israel. 
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • jellyrolljellyroll Frets: 2090
    Thanks for those links HFD. 
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15343
    Putin's befriending of Benjamin Netanyahu has more to do with my enemies enemy is my friend. Russia wants to consolidate its power in Syria which means at some point it will need to face Iran. If Putin can form an understanding with Israel he will put the US in an awkward position. Would the US oppose joint Russian/Israeli action against Iran? I doubt it.

    In any case we're about to find out as Iran and Israel fire rockets at each other. Publicly the Russian stance is diplomacy and trying to find a solution to the tensions between Iran and Israel. It is now the only credible super power in the region. Long term it knows Iran is unstable and only exists to export its warped ideology. A Russian/Israeli pact could therefore be beneficial to both countries.

    https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2018/04/iran-israel-russia-buffer-syria.html



    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10684
    Peter Beinart has written a superb article on the moves against Iran. Even if you disagree with his argument, it should be admired for being very well written. 

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/05/iraq-war-iran-deal/559844/
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • MarshallMarshall Frets: 114
    Flagrant state sponsored terrorism with impunity on an eye-watering scale...

    https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/05/israelopt-use-of-excessive-force-in-gaza-an-abhorrent-violation-of-international-law/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=quote&utm_term=This+is+another+horrific+example+of+the+Israeli+military+using+excessive+force+and+live+ammunition+in+a+totally+deplorable+way.+This+is+a+violation+of+international+standards%2C+in+some+instances+committing+what+appear+to+be+wilful+killings+constituting+war+crimes.&utm_campaign=social

    ..as another member posted elsewhere last month (I hope they will forgive my reference) :-  

    "Most atrocities performed by governments around the world are ignored by the US, the UK and France so to claim air strikes are some kind of humanitarian mission is absolute bollocks. "
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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 12714
    I haven’t read the detail on the massacre in Gaza yesterday but I can’t help thinking Israel has been very much buoyed by Trump’s support and is now pushing the boundaries to see how far they can get before Trump calls a halt to it.
    98% shouting at clouds and 2% laminate flooring
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 30902
    edited May 15
    Emp_Fab said:
    I haven’t read the detail on the massacre in Gaza yesterday but I can’t help thinking Israel has been very much buoyed by Trump’s support and is now pushing the boundaries to see how far they can get before Trump calls a halt to it.
    How far?

    I seriously doubt there is *any* atrocity Israel could commit which would make Trump call a halt. The US did nothing when Israeli forces supervised the massacre of thousands of civilians by Israeli-backed militias in Lebanon.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

    They didn't even do anything when Israel attacked and nearly sank an American ship during the 1967 war, killing 34 US crew and injuring 171...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • NiteflyNitefly Frets: 1988
    Emp_Fab said:
    I haven’t read the detail on the massacre in Gaza yesterday but I can’t help thinking Israel has been very much buoyed by Trump’s support and is now pushing the boundaries to see how far they can get before Trump calls a halt to it.
    On the money, Emp.

    I really don't get how Israel garners such unquestioning support from Uncle Sam.

    Grown most uncommonly fat!
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  • MarshallMarshall Frets: 114
    Nitefly said:
    Emp_Fab said:
    I haven’t read the detail on the massacre in Gaza yesterday but I can’t help thinking Israel has been very much buoyed by Trump’s support and is now pushing the boundaries to see how far they can get before Trump calls a halt to it.
    On the money, Emp.

    I really don't get how Israel garners such unquestioning support from Uncle Sam.

    Oh oh...that's a real ugly can of worms to open..
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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 12714
    Not really. The Jewish influence within the US corridors of power has been known about for decades.
    98% shouting at clouds and 2% laminate flooring
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  • MarshallMarshall Frets: 114
    "Ugly" in the sense of highly incendiary.

    The 'influence' is everywhere.
    The impact could hardly be more serious for everyone.
    Yet to even raise the subject in any way which might be construed as even vaguely critical of the state of Israel's policies is to risk an avalanche of condemnation as may be observed occurring at this very moment over the latest events in Israel/Palestine.

    Another provocative piece from Mr Steele's quill: 
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/15/donald-trump-gaza-palestinians-israel?CMP=share_btn_link
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 30902
    Israel knows it can do whatever it wants with absolute impunity, and no fear of even any criticism from the West, let alone punishment.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • MarshallMarshall Frets: 114
    edited May 16
    ICBM said:
    Israel knows it can do whatever it wants with absolute impunity, and no fear of even any criticism from the West, let alone punishment.
    and in fact with our assistance - what did the UK's 'arms sales' to Israel total in the last 24 months ?

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/uk-israel-arms-deals-gaza-strip-palestinian-protests-killing-a8298026.html
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 30902
    Marshall said:

    and in fact with our assistance - what did the UK's 'arms sales' to Israel total in the last 24 months ?
    Well, you can't accuse us of favouritism in who we arm to kill civilians - last year we sold the Saudis over a billion pounds' worth of weapons which they've been using on the Yemenis as well.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/24/uk-sales-of-arms-and-military-equipment-to-saudi-arabia-2017
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • scrumhalfscrumhalf Frets: 4558
    Emp_Fab said:
    Not really. The Jewish influence within the US corridors of power has been known about for decades.
    The Obama administration certainly showed this to be a load of bollocks.


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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 30902
    scrumhalf said:
    Emp_Fab said:
    Not really. The Jewish influence within the US corridors of power has been known about for decades.
    The Obama administration certainly showed this to be a load of bollocks.
    http://www.njdc.org/oped062315/

    The last US president to take any serious action against Israel, for anything, was Eisenhower.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • KilgoreKilgore Frets: 814
    Emp_Fab said:
    Not really. The Jewish influence within the US corridors of power has been known about for decades.
    You could have phrased this better.

    It sounds like it was taken from a speech at a Nuremberg rally.
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