Iran, Trump and Netem... neti...netyny...

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  • MarshallMarshall Frets: 141
    edited May 16
    ICBM said:
    Marshall said:

    and in fact with our assistance - what did the UK's 'arms sales' to Israel total in the last 24 months ?
    Well, you can't accuse us of favouritism in who we arm to kill civilians - last year we sold the Saudis over a billion pounds' worth of weapons which they've been using on the Yemenis as well.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/24/uk-sales-of-arms-and-military-equipment-to-saudi-arabia-2017
    Saudi market is significantly more lucrative no question. As far as favouritism, not quite so convinced...

    "Truth is treason in the empire of lies” G.Orwell

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  • DominicDominic Frets: 3489
    Nobody is killing "Civilians".......both in Hamas Gaza AND Shiite Yemen they are Iranian Terrorist Proxies
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  • ChalkyChalky Frets: 5347
    Dominic said:
    Nobody is killing "Civilians".......both in Hamas Gaza AND Shiite Yemen they are Iranian Terrorist Proxies
    Israeli bullets only kill bad people, eh? I thought that only happened in the movies.
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  • DominicDominic Frets: 3489
    Anybody who threatens Israel is "bad people " to me .
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 31625
    Dominic said:
    Anybody who threatens Israel is "bad people " to me .
    How about the civilians who have been killed? Are they bad people?
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • MarshallMarshall Frets: 141
    Dominic said:
    Nobody is killing "Civilians".......both in Hamas Gaza AND Shiite Yemen they are Iranian Terrorist Proxies
    Sounds like you'd make quite the recruit for the IDF - or Netanyahu's govt alternatively

    Presumably the 12 children (6 on Monday alone) among the slaughtered since 30 March also do not qualify as "Civilians" ?

    Or the "8-month-old baby who died from teargas inhalation" on Monday ?

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/gaza-protests-palestinian-baby-dead-tear-gas-israel-soldiers-jerusalem-border-us-embassy-a8351971.html

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2018/may/15/gaza-israel-nakba-day-protests-as-palestinians-bury-those-killed-in-embassy-unrest-live-updates?page=with:block-5afa9661e4b02d1f3350f99d#block-5afa9661e4b02d1f3350f99d

    Or for that matter the more than 800,000  0-14 year-old prisoners in Gaza ?

    Perhaps your definition of "Civilian" in this context presumes 'members of a recognised state', in which case the statement becomes more intelligible if nothing else.

    I suppose this "terrorist" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FNUGGz6S1Y&feature=share (linked from the Amnesty article above) definitely got his just rewards as Mr Rothwell believes ?


    "Truth is treason in the empire of lies” G.Orwell

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  • MarshallMarshall Frets: 141

    "Truth is treason in the empire of lies” G.Orwell

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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 2881
    why on earth would anyone one be stupid enough to take children there?

    play every note as if it were your first
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  • DominicDominic Frets: 3489
    My Uncle was  an IDF volunteer in1967 ...24 years earlier my great grandparents were killed by Nazis in Lithuania .
    Funny how  today Erdogan has called on all Muslim Nations to take action against Israel -Like they all did in 1967 and 1972 when they picked a fight to "wipe Israel off the face of the Earth " on the very holiest day of Yom Kippur and got hammered by the best Army and Air force in the world .6 days it took to beat the combined forces of Egypt,Syria,Jordan,Iraq and Lebanon as well as the Palestinians. Look at a map ......Israel is less than 3% of that region.
     You're probably Christian so to you it's a World news issue...........when you're Jewish and it's the very defence of your Homeland that your family have died for and that Iran wants to "wipe from the planet "  you tend to take a different view.
     Take note of the call to all Muslim Nations by Erdogan of Turkey  today (who is busy killing Kurdish children )...........and the famous quote "First they came for the Communists,then they came for the Jews etc etc.." and then who ?.........and you wonder why  Israel has no choice but to defend itself......So what ,they should open the gates and invite them in for tea ? ........the same faction that were firing rockets from Syria 3 days ago onto Northern Kibbutz.
     Israel has no desire for anything but to be left in peace .......if they opened Gaza then would be a genocide just like the one that most Israeli's grandparents fled in the 1940s.Never again . Israel is 29% Arab population with full citizenship and army duty with absolutely no friction  ;some of the IDF soldiers at the border would have been Arab and also Druze not just Jewish .
    It is just dreadful what is happening but Israel is not the aggressor.

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  • MarshallMarshall Frets: 141
    Dominic said:
    My Uncle was  an IDF volunteer in1967 ...24 years earlier my great grandparents were killed by Nazis in Lithuania .
    Funny how  today Erdogan has called on all Muslim Nations to take action against Israel -Like they all did in 1967 and 1972 when they picked a fight to "wipe Israel off the face of the Earth " on the very holiest day of Yom Kippur and got hammered by the best Army and Air force in the world .6 days it took to beat the combined forces of Egypt,Syria,Jordan,Iraq and Lebanon as well as the Palestinians. Look at a map ......Israel is less than 3% of that region.
     You're probably Christian so to you it's a World news issue...........when you're Jewish and it's the very defence of your Homeland that your family have died for and that Iran wants to "wipe from the planet "  you tend to take a different view.
     Take note of the call to all Muslim Nations by Erdogan of Turkey  today (who is busy killing Kurdish children )...........and the famous quote "First they came for the Communists,then they came for the Jews etc etc.." and then who ?.........and you wonder why  Israel has no choice but to defend itself......So what ,they should open the gates and invite them in for tea ? ........the same faction that were firing rockets from Syria 3 days ago onto Northern Kibbutz.
     Israel has no desire for anything but to be left in peace .......if they opened Gaza then would be a genocide just like the one that most Israeli's grandparents fled in the 1940s.Never again . Israel is 29% Arab population with full citizenship and army duty with absolutely no friction  ;some of the IDF soldiers at the border would have been Arab and also Druze not just Jewish .
    It is just dreadful what is happening but Israel is not the aggressor.

    Yes, it occurred to me later that your earlier comments might also imply that you actually are IDF, Likud, or in some other way you are linked to them.

    I agree with something that you said "It is just dreadful what is happening.." 

    Unfortunately the end of that same sentence is self-evidently incorrect, whether there are other actors in the frame who are also aggressors or not..if I shoot at and kill unarmed, defenceless children in what amounts to a 'shooting gallery' populated with living human beings, then yes, whether I am being ordered to do so or not, I am responsible for it, and that responsibility includes the murder of unarmed human beings inside their own territory legitimately protesting the appalling and inhumane conditions that they are suffering..

    Irony upon ironies is that the state of Israel is subjecting Palestinians to many of the horrors that the Jewish people have endured in the past, to some of which you refer.

    Not Christian and not Jewish; not religious in fact, which does not mean that I do not respect other's right to believe what they choose, so long as it is mutually respectful. Religion may be part of the problem, but the fact that humanity and humanitarian considerations don't supersede religious divisions as a matter of course in situations like these exposes the true nature of 'human religion' as far as I am concerned

    "Truth is treason in the empire of lies” G.Orwell

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  • MarshallMarshall Frets: 141
    edited May 17
    Clarky said:
    why on earth would anyone one be stupid enough to take children there?

    the same thought crossed my mind..if it were me and my child - all that.

    But that is all too easy for us in our comfortable luxury...the reality of existence in Gaza for god knows how many years/generations is another matter entirely...and then there's the Gaza demographic with 66% of the near 2 million population aged 0-24..makes sobering reading - https://www.cia.gov/library/Publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gz.html

    Of course, quite aside from the "stupidity" or otherwise of exposing minors to such danger, there is the small matter of the fact that stupidity never was valid justification for mass executions of unarmed individuals who "pose no immediate or imminent threat" to a heavily armed military force protected by a very substantial razor-wired border fence and backed up with one of the world's most powerful military arsenals bristling with all the latest shiny cutting edge weapons tech (some of which provided by us good 'ole UK of course)

    "Truth is treason in the empire of lies” G.Orwell

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 31625
    I’m not a Christian, I’m an atheist.

    I don’t disagree that both sides are to blame - but that is not an excuse for killing civilians, either when reprisal strikes are carried out indiscriminately on hospitals, schools and residential buildings, or by deliberately killing protestors - who may not be entirely peaceful, but a 12-year-old boy with a slingshot is not a “threat” to an army which as you point out is the most highly-trained and best armed in the region.

    And that’s on top of the conditions Israel forces the population of Gaza to live in by effectively imposing a siege on the territory. Is it any wonder they’re angry?
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • DominicDominic Frets: 3489
    It's a disgusting situation and an abhorrence and you have to wonder individually what kind of human being could carefully scope the sights of a rifle on a 14 year old kid .........I cannot condone that because it is probably the same mentality that could load a mother and 2 babies into a gas chamber and lock the door.Don't think that some of the Soldiers doing the shooting aren't Arab or Druze Muslim tho'.......in fact Druze are a big contingent of Mossad and Shabbak .
    If you haven't lived in Israel or spent a lot of time there you couldn't possibly understand the Politics.....it's a lot more complicated than you realise or that biased reporting / propaganda would have you believe.
    You need to understand the difference between the Palestinian Territories of Gaza which is controlled by Hamas and the much larger Palestinian Territories of West Bank,Ramallah and Hebron which isn't. Gaza is very small .....there isn't the same situation going on in the West Bank although that's far from Happy.
    Whether you are Christian or AETHEIST let alone Jewish you would not be able to walk into Gaza City or Khan Younnis and come out alive.
    You could walk into Bethlehem or Jericho (West Bank ) and have a great day .
    The General who was in charge of the British Army in Afghanistan stated yesterday as an International observer that there wasn't a single death that wasn't directly attributable to the Gaza Authority.He pointed out that the civilians are human shields being exploited by terror factions into forced Martyrdom which is a big issue in this part of the World.There have even been suggestions that not all the Sniper fire is coming from the Israeli side of the border.
    The whole situation is very bizarre -the last time that they rolled burning tyres against the border they rolled back down the hill and set fire to the big Plastics factory that is one of the biggest employers  and assets of Palestinian Gaza ....The Israeli Fire Brigade risked their lives to go in and put it out !
    The Egyptians on the other side of Gaza are also on shoot to kill orders but that doesn't make the news.
    The whole issue is being financed and stoked by Iran who are intent on destabilising the region exactly the same as they are doing to Saudi in Yemen and attempting to do in Syria and as a result Saudi and Israel have become unlikely Allies (although business has gone on between the two for years as they are the 2 money powers in the region ).They are already controlling Lebanon through funding Hezbollah and the Syrian influence.
     The Israelis are not locking IN the Gaza Palestinians they are locking them OUT. The problem is that there is nowhere for them to go as none of the Arab world will have them and as such the situation will never be resolved.If they go to West Bank they will have Civil War between Palestinians and if they go into Israel there will be slaughter. Israel cannot win as there is no solution.
    Israel does not besiege Gaza .....the Water and Electric which is cut off is supplied by Jordan NOT Israel and they haven't been paid for it which is why they cut it off.............not Israel as misreported / propagandised.
    The whole thing is a very sad situation to which there are no obvious answers other than Iran's solution .."To wipe Israel off the face of the Earth ."And now Turkey (the biggest military in the area )is calling the Muslim world to arms against Israel because it is being controlled by Erdogan who is a Muslim Fundamentalist .Domestic secular life is changing massively in Turkey month by month.
    It's only a matter of time before Iran and Israel go to war ........probably within the next 12 months.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 31625
    I don't disagree with everything you're saying. I do disagree that the Israeli behaviour is civilised or proportionate.

    In the 1970s and 80s, the British government did not respond to IRA violence by sealing off West Belfast and imposing siege conditions. The British Army did not - with one exception (for which my father, a former British Army officer, thought that all the officers present should have been court-martialled) - shoot unarmed protestors. When two British soldiers were caught and beaten to death by a republican mob, the British government did not respond by bombing hospitals and schools, and demolishing housing blocks. Nor did they when the IRA fired rockets at Downing Street, or blew up the Grand Hotel in Brighton, or murdered bandsmen in Hyde Park.

    Just because one side in a conflict is a terrorist organisation - which both the IRA and Hamas are - doesn't justify collective punishment of the civilian population who they claim to represent.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11045
    Marshall said:

    Not Christian and not Jewish; not religious in fact, which does not mean that I do not respect other's right to believe what they choose, so long as it is mutually respectful. Religion may be part of the problem, but the fact that humanity and humanitarian considerations don't supersede religious divisions as a matter of course in situations like these exposes the true nature of 'human religion' as far as I am concerned
    My late grandfather served with the military in Palestine after the war. He saw many distasteful acts there and never moved from his position that the struggle for religious and geographical power had led both sides to lose the moral high ground. Until both sides have leaders who are prepared to put the rights of their respective populations to live without fear of death or injury through conflict before their religious beliefs, nothing will change. 
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • scrumhalfscrumhalf Frets: 4758
    ICBM said:

    In the 1970s and 80s, the British government did not respond to IRA violence by sealing off West Belfast and imposing siege conditions.
    I don't recall the IRA saying that they wanted to wipe Great Britain off the map, or saying that they wanted to wipe out every British person in the world, regardless of where they lived.

    The threat is entirely different.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 31625
    scrumhalf said:
    ICBM said:

    In the 1970s and 80s, the British government did not respond to IRA violence by sealing off West Belfast and imposing siege conditions.
    I don't recall the IRA saying that they wanted to wipe Great Britain off the map, or saying that they wanted to wipe out every British person in the world, regardless of where they lived.

    The threat is entirely different.
    I agree the threat is greater, but which still does not justify the deliberate and indiscriminate killing of civilians.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • MarshallMarshall Frets: 141
    edited June 8
    Dominic said:
    It's a disgusting situation and an abhorrence and you have to wonder individually what kind of human being could carefully scope the sights of a rifle on a 14 year old kid .........I cannot condone that because it is probably the same mentality that could load a mother and 2 babies into a gas chamber and lock the door.Don't think that some of the Soldiers doing the shooting aren't Arab or Druze Muslim tho'.......in fact Druze are a big contingent of Mossad and Shabbak .
    If you haven't lived in Israel or spent a lot of time there you couldn't possibly understand the Politics.....it's a lot more complicated than you realise or that biased reporting / propaganda would have you believe.
    You need to understand the difference between the Palestinian Territories of Gaza which is controlled by Hamas and the much larger Palestinian Territories of West Bank,Ramallah and Hebron which isn't. Gaza is very small .....there isn't the same situation going on in the West Bank although that's far from Happy.
    Whether you are Christian or AETHEIST let alone Jewish you would not be able to walk into Gaza City or Khan Younnis and come out alive.
    You could walk into Bethlehem or Jericho (West Bank ) and have a great day .
    The General who was in charge of the British Army in Afghanistan stated yesterday as an International observer that there wasn't a single death that wasn't directly attributable to the Gaza Authority.He pointed out that the civilians are human shields being exploited by terror factions into forced Martyrdom which is a big issue in this part of the World.There have even been suggestions that not all the Sniper fire is coming from the Israeli side of the border.
    The whole situation is very bizarre -the last time that they rolled burning tyres against the border they rolled back down the hill and set fire to the big Plastics factory that is one of the biggest employers  and assets of Palestinian Gaza ....The Israeli Fire Brigade risked their lives to go in and put it out !
    The Egyptians on the other side of Gaza are also on shoot to kill orders but that doesn't make the news.
    The whole issue is being financed and stoked by Iran who are intent on destabilising the region exactly the same as they are doing to Saudi in Yemen and attempting to do in Syria and as a result Saudi and Israel have become unlikely Allies (although business has gone on between the two for years as they are the 2 money powers in the region ).They are already controlling Lebanon through funding Hezbollah and the Syrian influence.
     The Israelis are not locking IN the Gaza Palestinians they are locking them OUT. The problem is that there is nowhere for them to go as none of the Arab world will have them and as such the situation will never be resolved.If they go to West Bank they will have Civil War between Palestinians and if they go into Israel there will be slaughter. Israel cannot win as there is no solution.
    Israel does not besiege Gaza .....the Water and Electric which is cut off is supplied by Jordan NOT Israel and they haven't been paid for it which is why they cut it off.............not Israel as misreported / propagandised.
    The whole thing is a very sad situation to which there are no obvious answers other than Iran's solution .."To wipe Israel off the face of the Earth ."And now Turkey (the biggest military in the area )is calling the Muslim world to arms against Israel because it is being controlled by Erdogan who is a Muslim Fundamentalist .Domestic secular life is changing massively in Turkey month by month.
    It's only a matter of time before Iran and Israel go to war ........probably within the next 12 months.
    Cannot claim to have "lived in Israel or spent a lot of time there" - I did spend a few weeks immediately prior to Bush senior's 'Gulf expedition' at the end of 1990 and 1st 2 weeks of 1991 leaving on an El Al flight just 2 days before the first scud hit Haifa.

     It was a unique time to be a foreign visitor in the country since most country's Foreign Offices including the UK's had publicly advised their nationals not to travel to Israel or to leave if already there, and had cancelled all commercial passenger flights in and out while I was there.
     It felt like a rare privilege at the time, with hardly any foreign visitors to be found, and the consequent exceptional response from virtually everyone I met, both Arab and Jew, Palestinian and Israeli.
     The experience was incredible, even for a seasoned traveller as I was by then, an unforgettable memory albeit barely more than a snapshot of the country's people at the briefest of moments.
     I travelled the length and breadth of the land alone, from Galilee and the Golan heights in the north to Haifa, Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Masada and the Dead Sea, Jericho, the Negev desert and finally Eilat in the south. Admittedly I spent 90% of my time in Israeli territory but did meet Palestinians as well as many Israelis including a young newly-wed Russian couple with a newborn on a bus - some of the Aliyah as they defined it in a long conversation through the night. L
    ike everyone I met without exception, their hospitality was incredible, inviting me a complete stranger, to stay at their house for the night. 

    The lasting impression of all the people I met was of extraordinary hospitality and unquestioning generosity. In the case of most though not all Israelis I met, this was matched by their unmistakable and fierce pride and it was not unusual to witness this expressed in war-like terms (I'll never forget the taxi driver who drove me to the airport thumping the dashboard while he told me he could not wait for war with Saddam). 

    In my limited study of Palestine pre WWI over the years, I have encountered a number of comments stating that prior to the global conflicts of the 20th century, although Jews accounted for no more than 10% of the population of Palestine or 'Ottoman Syria' as it was also known, much as Christian, Jew and Arab do in other parts of the world today, they lived peacefully alongside each other with mutual respect for each others customs and creeds.

    As we all are regularly reminded, Iran continually threatens "To wipe Israel off the face of the Earth" and is busy about the job with all it's nefarious activities in the region. 

    I would genuinely like to see if not ALL these threats from Iran, at least a good representative selection of recent primary source examples of these. 

    Attempts to research this have proved to be not exactly a straightforward matter since somewhat predictably, any search on the topic delivers an avalanche of Jewish and Western dominated sources delivering this same story endlessly reworded and reframed for its western audience...

    "Truth is treason in the empire of lies” G.Orwell

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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11045

    Ties are clearly strong. I didn't know Russian was the third commonest language in Israel. 

    Give a warm welcome to Israel's newest richest man. 

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-44282099


    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • MarshallMarshall Frets: 141
    edited May 30
    He should feel right at home..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCKWDarNdGw&feature=share
    https://imeu.org/article/operation-cast-lead#

    ..of course I'm sure -
    "Israel passport holders are allowed to enter Britain without a visa for short stays...The move could pay off financially as new Israeli citizens are exempt from paying tax on foreign income for 10 years."  - has nothing to do with it.

    Failing all of which, imagine he should be reasonably comfortable for a couple of days slumming it here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj6uW4zg9gw


    "Truth is treason in the empire of lies” G.Orwell

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  • MarshallMarshall Frets: 141
    edited June 11
    "..The present Israeli government ruthlessly and cynically exploits the continuing guilt among gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians. The implication is that Jewish lives are precious but the lives of Palestinians do not count....
    ..Israel was born out of Jewish Terrorism..
    It's time for our government to make clear to the Israeli government that it's conduct and policies are unacceptable and to impose a total arms ban on Israel...They are not simply war criminals, they are fools."
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KajIEO1sqg4

    "Truth is treason in the empire of lies” G.Orwell

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  • DominicDominic Frets: 3489
    You seem to have a need to keep expressing Anti Israel diatribe .I don't want to hear it.
    I love Israel with all my heart .
    Kauffman is a horrible little left wing traitor to Judaism ,always was and I cannot think of a Synagogue where he would be welcome- I won't call him an Uncle Tom ;I'll call him an Uncle Hymie and despite what he says he was no "friend" to Golda Meir , a great Israeli Prime Minister.Shame on him that he should even mention her name.
    But in the words of Golda Meir there was much truth.......
    "There will never be peace until the Palestinians learn to love their children more than they hate ours "
    Shalom.
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  • MarshallMarshall Frets: 141
    edited June 11
    Dominic said:
    You seem to have a need to keep expressing Anti Israel diatribe .I don't want to hear it.
    I love Israel with all my heart .
    Kauffman is a horrible little left wing traitor to Judaism ,always was and I cannot think of a Synagogue where he would be welcome- I won't call him an Uncle Tom ;I'll call him an Uncle Hymie and despite what he says he was no "friend" to Golda Meir , a great Israeli Prime Minister.Shame on him that he should even mention her name.
    But in the words of Golda Meir there was much truth.......
    "There will never be peace until the Palestinians learn to love their children more than they hate ours "
    Shalom.
    Apparently you mistake my comments in several ways, the most obvious of which is to take them personally.

    They are not intended on a personal level though they may respond to certain comments you or others make at one time or another as is the nature of political debate.

    If you "don't want to hear it" that's absolutely fine, nobody is forcing you to and you are here entirely of your own volition. Having made that choice, accept that you are very likely to encounter differing views to your own, especially since your own views are not, as clearly evidenced above, moderate or peacemaking in any sense but more in line with your ascribed "diatribe", defined as 'forceful and bitter attack'.

    I may not "want to hear" your controversial or unilateralist views; I may find them offensive or hateful on a number of fundamental levels, but that in no way denies your right to express them within reasonable parameters. 

    Why you should feel that criticism of current Israeli policy in any way equates to threatening or questioning your wholehearted "love for Israel" I don't know, but it is a mistake and an all too common one I should add.

    It really shouldn't be necessary today to have to point out that one can wholeheartedly love one's country while being equally disgusted with one or another of its policies. I regard that as simply honest and mature thinking.

    Perhaps I am in the ever diminishing minority here however, in this dark and growing darker age of 'Patriot Acts' etc.. of course I am inevitably reminded of the notorious quote ascribed to Goering regarding such matters of "patriotism", "pacifism" and "exposing the country to greater danger", as well of course of the infamous Oscar Wilde's "Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious."

    Nevertheless, it does seem to be a particularly entrenched factor always surrounding any debate of the Israel/Palestine issue, to where now the entire larger debate is permanently overshadowed by the excuse/justification of any and all Israeli action on the grounds of a minority group of persecuted people who are forever hunted by a racist majority who are perennially committed to "wiping them off the map" (still optimistically looking forward to someone turning up some - any - reliable primary source evidence of Iran's alleged never-ending threats to do this).

    It is certainly a well worn horse that one, and is precisely what Sir Gerald Kaufman MP was referring to in his parliamentary speech to the House of Commons in 2009, just as one of the most abhorrent and ruthless mass slaughters of civilians anywhere and at any time - 'Operation Cast Lead' - was taking place in Israel, when he said "The present Israeli government ruthlessly and cynically exploits the continuing guilt from Gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the Holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians...My grandmother was ill in bed when the Nazis came to her home town. A German soldier shot her dead in her bed. My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza."

    "Kauffman is a horrible little left wing traitor to Judaism.."  Ah yes, the "traitor" defamation again, Goering would be proud.. And presumably you mean "Kaufman was.."  What was that about "diatribe" again.?

    "Golda Meir , a great Israeli Prime Minister.."  Yes, that would be the "great" Golda Meir who during her speech in Eilat in 1973 in front an audience of high school students claimed that, before 1967, she had never heard of the Palestinian people and that they were somehow invented and had no real national identity - and therefore could have no national claims to the land of Palestine "There were no such thing as Palestinians...It was not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as a Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them. They did not exist."   Yes, the "great" Golda Meir.

    "There will never be peace until the Palestinians learn to love their children more than they hate ours "

    There will certainly never be peace so long as Israel denies Palestinians even the merest of humanitarian consideration while it bombs, snipes, bulldozes, drones, white phosphorises and god knows what else the Palestinian children of Gaza from the land sea and sky, day after night after day after night after..

    "Truth is treason in the empire of lies” G.Orwell

    Feedback link -  http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/133389/marshall#latest

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  • MarshallMarshall Frets: 141

    http://www.nti.org/learn/countries/israel/

    “Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” 

    G.Orwell

    "Truth is treason in the empire of lies” G.Orwell

    Feedback link -  http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/133389/marshall#latest

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  • jellyrolljellyroll Frets: 2128
    "Well, I do hate myself; but it has nothing to do with being Jewish"

    L. David

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_inventions_and_discoveries


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  • MarshallMarshall Frets: 141
    edited July 8
    jellyroll said:
    "Well, I do hate myself; but it has nothing to do with being Jewish"

    L. David

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_inventions_and_discoveries


    The Israel Project? https://www.theisraelproject.org/   < especially love the current 'Terror Kites' banner >

    Or perchance merely https://www.aipac.org/  or another partner in the Jewish American lobby? Perhaps closer to home https://cfoi.co.uk/ ?

    Why stop there? 

    Surely the equivalent list of famous and influential Jews makes equally essential reading?

    And while perusing the sobering and disturbing list (take your pick of which list, there are of course literally hundreds at least, thanks to highly organised and motivated Jewish lobbies and monopolies within western media)..

    ..don't forget to note Edward Bernays, variously described as the 'Father of modern public relations' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays 

     J. Robert Oppenheimer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Robert_Oppenheimer , variously described as being the "father of the atomic bomb" for his chief role in the Manhattan project that famously developed the first nuclear bomb used in the needless and ultimate 'crime against humanity' of instantly vaporising hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians.

    Do people forget that the USA is still the only country in history to murder huge urban populations in the ultimate 'Act of terrorism' using nuclear weapons of mass destruction' ? It would seem so..

    But really, imho any list worth it's salt really ought to be headed by the one and only - still huffing and puffing and by 'accounts that count' still exercising 'monolithic influence' - Henry Kissinger. 

    How about Ben Bernanke, two term chairman of the US Federal Reserve, followed by Janet Yellen and preceded by Alan Greenspan? Ah the Federal Reserve, there's a rabbit hole stuffed with Jewish connections if ever there was one.

    How about Robert Rubin, former US Secretary of the Treasury during the Clinton administration and former 
    member of the board and co-chairman during a 26-year career at Goldman Sachs? Ah, Goldman Sachs, another rabbit hole. He did do rather well at Citgroup as well didn't he now?

    Or perhaps you prefer Steven Mnuchin, current 
    US Secretary of the Treasury, following a 17-year career at Goldman Sachs where he eventually became Chief Information Officer.

    Or perhaps 
    Gary David Cohn, formerly the president and chief operating officer of Goldman Sachs from 2006 to 2017, and who served as the 11th Director of the National Economic Council and was the chief economic advisor to President Donald Trump from 2017 to 2018...

    Mark Carney? Perhaps one of those 'Jews' who likes to keep his true colours a little more under the radar/discreet. Perhaps not..

    Either way, the Goldman Sachs theme is stark and impossible to ignore - of course its founder Marcus Goldman was of Ashkenazi Jewish descent.

    How many Americans of Jewish descent have held senior US governmental positions at many of the highest levels?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_American_politicians
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_members_of_the_United_States_Congress

    To start a monumental snow ball rolling, how about the chilling Richard Perle, with a too-long-to-record list of former (and current) positions of immense influence and of the infamous statement "
    If we let our vision of the world go forth, and we embrace it entirely, and we don't try to piece together clever diplomacy but just wage total war, our children will sing great songs about us years from now." His connections within Likud as well as his well known positions within the US and consequent influence in Iraq, Libya, Jerusalem Post and god-knows where else are sobering to say the least.

    Then there's Paul Wolfowitz.. another with a too-long-to-record list of notorious positions of influence and controversy, not least of which his presidency of the World Bank and tenure at the AEI.

    Rahm Emanuel, former White House Chief of Staff and current mayor of Chicago

    Dominique Strauss-Kahn, former Head of the IMF in a 'colourful' political career

    Michael Bloomberg, former New York mayor

    Larry Silverstein, he of WTC fame etc

    Mark Zuckerberg

    Elliott Abrams, currently a senior fellow at the infamous CFR

    Madeleine Albright, former US Secretary of State, she of the marvelous "we think it (500,000+ Iraqi child deaths) was worth it"

    Lee Rosenberg, President of AIPAC and Obama supporter

    Sergey Brin

    David Axelrod, Obama, NBC, MSNBC, CNN etc

    Jeff Zucker, former CEO of NBC Universal, now president of CNN Worldwide, of whom JPost wrote in 2010 "President and CEO of NBC Universal, the premier television network in the US for the past three years. New York Times columnist Maureen Dowd wrote that in Hollywood “there has been a single topic of discussion: How does Jeff Zucker keep rising and rising while the fortunes of NBC keep falling and falling?” Many of Hollywood’s honchos are Jewish, including executives from CBS, Walt Disney, Warner Brothers, News Corp., Sony Pictures Chairman and CBS, whose CEO, Leslie Moonves is a great-nephew of David Ben-Gurion."

    Joseph Lieberman, US Senator

    Elliott Abrams, Reagan & Bush

    Dianne Feinstein, US Senator

    ..and so the list goes on and on and on and I haven't even really scraped the surface but have certainly exhausted my patience while managing to avoid mentioning some terribly well known and controversial names which I will leave to others..

    ..on the flip side - before I am roundly condemned with an avalanche of predictable antisemite accusations - there are of course many jolly marvellous Jews or individuals of Jewish descent who are or were just the most wonderful human beings; those of whom come to mind :- Robert Zimmerman, Albert Einstein, Noam Chomsky, Leonard Cohen, Lou Reed, Gilad Atzmon, Geddy Lee, Lenny Bruce, Sacha Baron Cohen, Peter Sellers, Billy Crystal, Dustin Hoffman, Mel Brooks, Daniel Day-Lewis, Sean Penn, Harvey Keitel, Joaquin Phoenix, Natalie Portman and of course the incomparable Woody Allen. 

    Thank you to all of them and all the other beautiful Jewish human beings who have immeasurably enriched my life

    "I'm not a real Jew, I'm Jew-ish”. Woody Allen

    "Truth is treason in the empire of lies” G.Orwell

    Feedback link -  http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/133389/marshall#latest

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  • ChalkyChalky Frets: 5347
    I wonder how many of the senior roles in the BBC are held by people who would describe themselves as Jewish?  Can you be a lapsed Jew, in the way that you can be a lapsed Catholic?
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  • MarshallMarshall Frets: 141
    Chalky said:
    I wonder how many of the senior roles in the BBC are held by people who would describe themselves as Jewish?  Can you be a lapsed Jew, in the way that you can be a lapsed Catholic?
    good question which I am unqualified to answer

    "Truth is treason in the empire of lies” G.Orwell

    Feedback link -  http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/133389/marshall#latest

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  • jellyrolljellyroll Frets: 2128
    edited June 29
    Marshall said:
    jellyroll said:
    "Well, I do hate myself; but it has nothing to do with being Jewish"

    L. David

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_inventions_and_discoveries


    The Israel Project? https://www.theisraelproject.org/   < especially love the current 'Terror Kites' banner >

    Or perchance merely https://www.aipac.org/  or another partner in the Jewish American lobby?

    Why stop there? 

    Surely the equivalent list of famous and influential Jews makes equally essential reading?

    And while perusing the sobering and disturbing list (take your pick of which list, there are of course literally hundreds at least, thanks to highly organised and motivated Jewish lobbies and monopolies within western media)..

    ..don't forget to note Edward Bernays, variously described as the 'Father of modern public relations' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays 

     J. Robert Oppenheimer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Robert_Oppenheimer , variously described as being the "father of the atomic bomb" for his chief role in the Manhattan project that famously developed the first nuclear bomb used in the needless and ultimate 'crime against humanity' of instantly vaporising hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians.

    Do people forget that the USA is still the only country in history to murder huge urban populations in the ultimate 'Act of terrorism' using nuclear weapons of mass destruction' ? It would seem so..

    But really, imho any list worth it's salt really ought to be headed by the one and only - still huffing and puffing and by 'accounts that count' still exercising 'monolithic influence' - Henry Kissinger. 

    How about Ben Bernanke, two term chairman of the US Federal Reserve, followed by Janet Yellen and preceded by Alan Greenspan? Ah the Federal Reserve, there's a rabbit hole stuffed with Jewish connections if ever there was one.

    How about Robert Rubin, former US Secretary of the Treasury during the Clinton administration and former member of the board and co-chairman during a 26-year career at Goldman Sachs? Ah, Goldman Sachs, another rabbit hole. He did do rather well at Citgroup as well didn't he now?

    Or perhaps you prefer Steven Mnuchin, current US Secretary of the Treasury, following a 17-year career at Goldman Sachs where he eventually became Chief Information Officer.

    Or perhaps Gary David Cohn, formerly the president and chief operating officer of Goldman Sachs from 2006 to 2017, and who served as the 11th Director of the National Economic Council and was the chief economic advisor to President Donald Trump from 2017 to 2018...

    Mark Carney? Perhaps one of those 'Jews' who likes to keep his true colours a little more under the radar/discreet. Perhaps not..

    Either way, the Goldman Sachs theme is stark and impossible to ignore - of course its founder Marcus Goldman was of Ashkenazi Jewish descent.

    How many Americans of Jewish descent have held senior US governmental positions at many of the highest levels?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_American_politicians
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_members_of_the_United_States_Congress

    To start a monumental snow ball rolling, how about the chilling Richard Perle, with a too-long-to-record list of former (and current) positions of immense influence and of the infamous statement "If we let our vision of the world go forth, and we embrace it entirely, and we don't try to piece together clever diplomacy but just wage total war, our children will sing great songs about us years from now." His connections within Likud as well as his well known positions within the US and consequent influence in Iraq, Libya, Jerusalem Post and god-knows where else are sobering to say the least.

    Then there's Paul Wolfowitz.. another with a too-long-to-record list of notorious positions of influence and controversy, not least of which his presidency of the World Bank and tenure at the AEI.

    Rahm Emanuel, former White House Chief of Staff and current mayor of Chicago

    Dominique Strauss-Kahn, former Head of the IMF in a 'colourful' political career

    Michael Bloomberg, former New York mayor

    Larry Silverstein, he of WTC fame etc

    Mark Zuckerberg

    Elliott Abrams, currently a senior fellow at the infamous CFR

    Madeleine Albright, former US Secretary of State, she of the marvelous "we think it (500,000+ Iraqi child deaths) was worth it"

    Lee Rosenberg, President of AIPAC and Obama supporter

    Sergey Brin

    David Axelrod, Obama, NBC, MSNBC, CNN etc

    Jeff Zucker, former CEO of NBC Universal, now president of CNN Worldwide, of whom JPost wrote in 2010 "President and CEO of NBC Universal, the premier television network in the US for the past three years. New York Times columnist Maureen Dowd wrote that in Hollywood “there has been a single topic of discussion: How does Jeff Zucker keep rising and rising while the fortunes of NBC keep falling and falling?” Many of Hollywood’s honchos are Jewish, including executives from CBS, Walt Disney, Warner Brothers, News Corp., Sony Pictures Chairman and CBS, whose CEO, Leslie Moonves is a great-nephew of David Ben-Gurion."

    Joseph Lieberman, US Senator

    Elliott Abrams, Reagan & Bush

    Dianne Feinstein, US Senator

    ..and so the list goes on and on and on and I haven't even really scraped the surface but have certainly exhausted my patience while managing to avoid mentioning some terribly well known and controversial names which I will leave to others..

    ..on the flip side - before I am roundly condemned with an avalanche of predictable antisemite accusations - there are of course many jolly marvellous Jews or individuals of Jewish descent who are or were just the most wonderful human beings; those of whom come to mind :- Robert Zimmerman, Albert Einstein, Noam Chomsky, Leonard Cohen, Lou Reed, Gilad Atzmon, Geddy Lee, Lenny Bruce, Sacha Baron Cohen, Peter Sellers, Billy Crystal, Dustin Hoffman, Mel Brooks, Daniel Day-Lewis, Sean Penn, Harvey Keitel, Joaquin Phoenix, Natalie Portman and of course the incomparable Woody Allen. 

    Thank you to all of them and all the other beautiful Jewish human beings who have immeasurably enriched my life

    "I'm not a real Jew, I'm Jew-ish”. Woody Allen
    You’re not antisemitic, you just think there is a sinister campaign involving Jews taking over the world? :)
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  • MarshallMarshall Frets: 141
    jellyroll said:
    Marshall said:
    jellyroll said:
    "Well, I do hate myself; but it has nothing to do with being Jewish"

    L. David

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_inventions_and_discoveries


    The Israel Project? https://www.theisraelproject.org/   < especially love the current 'Terror Kites' banner >

    Or perchance merely https://www.aipac.org/  or another partner in the Jewish American lobby?

    Why stop there? 

    Surely the equivalent list of famous and influential Jews makes equally essential reading?

    And while perusing the sobering and disturbing list (take your pick of which list, there are of course literally hundreds at least, thanks to highly organised and motivated Jewish lobbies and monopolies within western media)..

    ..don't forget to note Edward Bernays, variously described as the 'Father of modern public relations' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays 

     J. Robert Oppenheimer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Robert_Oppenheimer , variously described as being the "father of the atomic bomb" for his chief role in the Manhattan project that famously developed the first nuclear bomb used in the needless and ultimate 'crime against humanity' of instantly vaporising hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians.

    Do people forget that the USA is still the only country in history to murder huge urban populations in the ultimate 'Act of terrorism' using nuclear weapons of mass destruction' ? It would seem so..

    But really, imho any list worth it's salt really ought to be headed by the one and only - still huffing and puffing and by 'accounts that count' still exercising 'monolithic influence' - Henry Kissinger. 

    How about Ben Bernanke, two term chairman of the US Federal Reserve, followed by Janet Yellen and preceded by Alan Greenspan? Ah the Federal Reserve, there's a rabbit hole stuffed with Jewish connections if ever there was one.

    How about Robert Rubin, former US Secretary of the Treasury during the Clinton administration and former member of the board and co-chairman during a 26-year career at Goldman Sachs? Ah, Goldman Sachs, another rabbit hole. He did do rather well at Citgroup as well didn't he now?

    Or perhaps you prefer Steven Mnuchin, current US Secretary of the Treasury, following a 17-year career at Goldman Sachs where he eventually became Chief Information Officer.

    Or perhaps Gary David Cohn, formerly the president and chief operating officer of Goldman Sachs from 2006 to 2017, and who served as the 11th Director of the National Economic Council and was the chief economic advisor to President Donald Trump from 2017 to 2018...

    Mark Carney? Perhaps one of those 'Jews' who likes to keep his true colours a little more under the radar/discreet. Perhaps not..

    Either way, the Goldman Sachs theme is stark and impossible to ignore - of course its founder Marcus Goldman was of Ashkenazi Jewish descent.

    How many Americans of Jewish descent have held senior US governmental positions at many of the highest levels?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_American_politicians
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_members_of_the_United_States_Congress

    To start a monumental snow ball rolling, how about the chilling Richard Perle, with a too-long-to-record list of former (and current) positions of immense influence and of the infamous statement "If we let our vision of the world go forth, and we embrace it entirely, and we don't try to piece together clever diplomacy but just wage total war, our children will sing great songs about us years from now." His connections within Likud as well as his well known positions within the US and consequent influence in Iraq, Libya, Jerusalem Post and god-knows where else are sobering to say the least.

    Then there's Paul Wolfowitz.. another with a too-long-to-record list of notorious positions of influence and controversy, not least of which his presidency of the World Bank and tenure at the AEI.

    Rahm Emanuel, former White House Chief of Staff and current mayor of Chicago

    Dominique Strauss-Kahn, former Head of the IMF in a 'colourful' political career

    Michael Bloomberg, former New York mayor

    Larry Silverstein, he of WTC fame etc

    Mark Zuckerberg

    Elliott Abrams, currently a senior fellow at the infamous CFR

    Madeleine Albright, former US Secretary of State, she of the marvelous "we think it (500,000+ Iraqi child deaths) was worth it"

    Lee Rosenberg, President of AIPAC and Obama supporter

    Sergey Brin

    David Axelrod, Obama, NBC, MSNBC, CNN etc

    Jeff Zucker, former CEO of NBC Universal, now president of CNN Worldwide, of whom JPost wrote in 2010 "President and CEO of NBC Universal, the premier television network in the US for the past three years. New York Times columnist Maureen Dowd wrote that in Hollywood “there has been a single topic of discussion: How does Jeff Zucker keep rising and rising while the fortunes of NBC keep falling and falling?” Many of Hollywood’s honchos are Jewish, including executives from CBS, Walt Disney, Warner Brothers, News Corp., Sony Pictures Chairman and CBS, whose CEO, Leslie Moonves is a great-nephew of David Ben-Gurion."

    Joseph Lieberman, US Senator

    Elliott Abrams, Reagan & Bush

    Dianne Feinstein, US Senator

    ..and so the list goes on and on and on and I haven't even really scraped the surface but have certainly exhausted my patience while managing to avoid mentioning some terribly well known and controversial names which I will leave to others..

    ..on the flip side - before I am roundly condemned with an avalanche of predictable antisemite accusations - there are of course many jolly marvellous Jews or individuals of Jewish descent who are or were just the most wonderful human beings; those of whom come to mind :- Robert Zimmerman, Albert Einstein, Noam Chomsky, Leonard Cohen, Lou Reed, Gilad Atzmon, Geddy Lee, Lenny Bruce, Sacha Baron Cohen, Peter Sellers, Billy Crystal, Dustin Hoffman, Mel Brooks, Daniel Day-Lewis, Sean Penn, Harvey Keitel, Joaquin Phoenix, Natalie Portman and of course the incomparable Woody Allen. 

    Thank you to all of them and all the other beautiful Jewish human beings who have immeasurably enriched my life

    "I'm not a real Jew, I'm Jew-ish”. Woody Allen
    You’re not antisemitic, you just think there is a sinister campaign involving Jews taking over the world? :)
    Correct and Incorrect respectively

    "Truth is treason in the empire of lies” G.Orwell

    Feedback link -  http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/133389/marshall#latest

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