Once a vintage guitar becomes a commodity, what's the point?

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  • Jez6345789Jez6345789 Frets: 1756
    I think collectors and investors are now so integrated in the 2nd hand guitar market that it's not going to just fade away as ultimately fashions and trends will change but supply will always be limited. 

    I also think that as much as many younger guitarists grew up with no real connection to what people of my age call classic guitars as they grow older the interest seems to start to rise. A friend of mines son would never talk to me about classic guitars he just used his squire JM for years. Suddenly a year a so ago he started obsessing over 50's and 60's era guitars sucking up everything he could on the subject. I just think as we mature our interest rises in older things.

    @jaymenon
    Not sure what the Collings and Throbak hate is about J Gundry can at times come across as arrogant. But he has spent a huge amount of time researching PAF pickups down to wire metal analysis and magnet composition over many years. A few years back he got hold of one of the old Gibson winders and again did a load of work on coil winding shapes of original PAF's.

    Is what he makes better or more authentic I don't know you either like the sound or you don't of any of these vintage styles of PAF clones. That said his pickups run around 5-600 bucks a set so there is an obvious upcharge over say, Lollar. 
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  • grappagreengrappagreen Frets: 1340
    Interesting thread..

    For those that consider vintage guitars an 'investment' then there is a point. They are speculating that the value of the asset will rise over time and that the risk is commensurate with the potential reward. For as long as there are buyers and sellers then a market will exist. Pure investors, more often than not, don't care about the asset per se; they just care about creating value. These investors will protect their investment and that may mean locking it away in a vault never to be seen/played or whatever.

    The point is that this is a vehicle to generate a return on investment; not a beautiful '61 Strat or '59 LP. They are serving themselves and not us..

    In fairness I should point out that most people who consider vintage guitars as an investment are actually 'into' guitars in some way so it's not quite so cut and dried but you catch my drift.

    Si
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  • soma1975soma1975 Frets: 6625
    All the vintage instruments I played at the recent Woking meet up sounded better than their modern counterparts. 

    I’m convinced it is the wood, but that’s maybe just because I would characterise the difference to the modern counterparts as ‘woody’. In my mad head it’s like the way in which a Chilli is better after you have cooked it then left it for a day or so. 

    The ‘54 Gold Top Les Paul I played, said to have been worth I’m the ballpark of 20k was worth that money, not as an investment but on how much better an instrument it was than my 2014 (rrp) £2,800 Les Paul Standard. 

    No confirmation bias or anything as I was hoping it would all be bullshit. 

    Likewise the 64 Strat sounded and felt ace compared to my 2006 Classic Player 60s Strat. 


    My Trade Feedback Thread is here

    Been uploading old tracks I recorded ages ago and hopefully some new noodles here.
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  • grappagreengrappagreen Frets: 1340
    edited April 2019
    soma1975 said:
    All the vintage instruments I played at the recent Woking meet up sounded better than their modern counterparts. 

    I’m convinced it is the wood, but that’s maybe just because I would characterise the difference to the modern counterparts as ‘woody’. In my mad head it’s like the way in which a Chilli is better after you have cooked it then left it for a day or so. 

    The ‘54 Gold Top Les Paul I played, said to have been worth I’m the ballpark of 20k was worth that money, not as an investment but on how much better an instrument it was than my 2014 (rrp) £2,800 Les Paul Standard. 

    No confirmation bias or anything as I was hoping it would all be bullshit. 

    Likewise the 64 Strat sounded and felt ace compared to my 2006 Classic Player 60s Strat. 


    Interestingly I took my '59 LP replica down and played it against Peter's. I love the vintage stuff; wow what a joy to hold and play two iconic 'real things'. My LP was no better/no worse imho. Of course I'm no aficionado so it's probably just me... or maybe not

    Doesn't stop me wanting the Goldtop badly or course.

    Si
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  • I’m only working on a sample of one here, but my old SG resonates more than any of my other guitars.
    It weighs less than 6lbs and is the loudest guitar acoustically compared to my others which are all good high level instruments (2 les pauls, a strat and a Suhr)

    it it might be the wood, it might be something to do with 55 years of ageing.
    i’ve only found one modern guitar as resonant and that was a custom shop strat that I still kick myself for not buying.

    does any of it make a difference playing with a band?
    Not really no!


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  • thegummythegummy Frets: 4389
    Jack_ said:
    Once a vintage guitar becomes a commodity, what's the point?
    Sound.
    That's something I'd love to know the truth on - if the wood on vintage guitars (or any component) actually changes the sound.

    If it doesn't we can leave them to the Antiques Roadshow crowd lol
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  • jaymenonjaymenon Frets: 804
    A very wise man I know says this:

    ‘Let’s put this “old wood” nonsense to bed.  Rain forest timber trees like Mahogany take centuries to grow and mature.  There is no reasonable reason to suggest that the timber used in a 1952 Les Paul is qualitatively “better” than that used in a 1992 Les Paul.  It’s essentially the same age of timber in both.  It’s entirely possible that the timber in a ‘92 Les Paul will have come from an older tree than that in a  ‘52.  

    There is a case to be made that Gibson had access to wood that had been better seasoned in 1952 than they have today.  We don’t know if that is actually the case though.  It’s often believed by luthiers that timber that has been air-dried naturally is “better” than kiln-dried timber.  When pressed on this though, they have a hard time explaining why they think it’s better.  Also, we don’t know with any certainty, this long after the fact, what proportion of Gibson’s sourced timber was kiln dried and what was air-dried. Modern seasoning plants use vacuum kilns to dry wood by reducing the air pressure to below the saturated vapour pressure of water, causing the wood’s included moisture content to reduce through forced evaporation without “baking” the wood causing uneven drying (like the way your chicken gets crispy on the outside and moist on the inside).    So it’s even possible that wood dried to modern standards is more consistent than earlier timber stocks.   

    To me, this is just more nostalgia and guitar geekery; like the “old violins are much better than new violins”. argument.  Violin aficionados desperately keep looking for reasons to rationalise their belief in this but it never withstands the harsh gaze of scientific scrutiny.’
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  • JezWyndJezWynd Frets: 6021
    My take on vintage guitars, esp. nitro finished ones, is that as the finish ages and settles into the wood, it enhances the feel and (maybe) the sound. Not sure where this leaves Fender's poly offerings of the 70's and 80's - I've never played an aged one; only played them when they were new (and often incredibly heavy ime). I'm all for refretting and replacing worn parts - they're instruments, they're mean't to be played.

    Much of it is "in the eye of the beholder". I watched a piece some time ago about how great Stradivarius were. They played a real one and a modern copy and eulogised over the superior tones of the Strad. But I much preferred the modern one - the Strad seemed harsh and abrasive to my ears - eyes/ears of the beholder.
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  • guitars4youguitars4you Frets: 14028
    tFB Trader
    JezWynd said:
     I watched a piece some time ago about how great Stradivarius were. They played a real one and a modern copy and eulogised over the superior tones of the Strad. But I much preferred the modern one - the Strad seemed harsh and abrasive to my ears - eyes/ears of the beholder.
    It is a known fact within the string industry that not all Strads are the be all and end all - Like an original 59 LP, or pre CBS Strat there are good and bad examples 

    Again nearly all, probably all, Strads have been changed - Necks removed, for starters, to change scale length from the old baroque scale length to a modern virtuoso/orchestral scale length

    Also a massive variation regarding the make up/materials/construction of strings that violin players choose - This has a massive impact on tonal variations available
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  • ronnybronnyb Frets: 1742
    I don't really care about all the whys and wherefores of it all. I just 'like' older and vintage guitars, its my hobby. I'd never dream of buying a new relic. I'm at a time in life where mortgage paid off / kids gone and guitars are what i want to spend my money on. Some of my guitars are in their cases and i never play them but i get pleasure out of just owning them. It's no different to buying paintings, coins or anything that people collect. Most men of my age would probably go out and buy a new car regularly and in the process lose thousands, mine is 15 years old. I'm pretty sure that judging by what i paid for mine and what i think they're worth now they'll continue to increase in value so why not?   
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  • soma1975soma1975 Frets: 6625
    jaymenon said:

    To me, this is just more nostalgia and guitar geekery; like the “old violins are much better than new violins”. argument.  Violin aficionados desperately keep looking for reasons to rationalise their belief in this but it never withstands the harsh gaze of scientific scrutiny.’

    It’s nothing of the sort. The old instruments I played all sounded different to modern equivalents. Whether you hear or like that difference is up to you. I’d be ecstatic if my modern Les Paul had had he same quality I found in the older one. Likewise the Strat. I’ve no hand in the game. 

    Frankly, bringing science into it is pointless when discussing something so completely subjective as tone. On paper a Mesa MKV is ‘scientifically’ a far superior amp to a 57 Deluxe. So is a Boss Katana. But I know which I would rather play. 
    My Trade Feedback Thread is here

    Been uploading old tracks I recorded ages ago and hopefully some new noodles here.
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  • FreebirdFreebird Frets: 5821
    edited April 2019
    What is the definition of a vintage guitar? I sometimes joke about my 30 year old Les Paul being vintage, but I have no idea what conditions a real vintage guitar must satisfy.
    If we are not ashamed to think it, we should not be ashamed to say it.
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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 11411
    soma1975 said:
    All the vintage instruments I played at the recent Woking meet up sounded better than their modern counterparts. 

    I’m convinced it is the wood, but that’s maybe just because I would characterise the difference to the modern counterparts as ‘woody’. In my mad head it’s like the way in which a Chilli is better after you have cooked it then left it for a day or so. 

    The ‘54 Gold Top Les Paul I played, said to have been worth I’m the ballpark of 20k was worth that money, not as an investment but on how much better an instrument it was than my 2014 (rrp) £2,800 Les Paul Standard. 

    No confirmation bias or anything as I was hoping it would all be bullshit. 

    Likewise the 64 Strat sounded and felt ace compared to my 2006 Classic Player 60s Strat. 


    You might put your Les Paul Standard up against a modern Custom Shop reissue and find the same thing.  On the whole, the Custom shop guitars are significantly better than the regular factory production.

    Likewise with the Fenders.  The Classic Player Strat isn't even the best sounding of the Mexican Strats.  I know I'm generalising here, but normally the Classic Series will sound better than the Classic Player because it has a proper Strat bridge, not that 2 point thing.  Occasionally you will find a bad example of a Classic Series and  good Classic player, but in general the Classic Series is a better sounding guitar.  That's just in the Mexican range.  By the time you get up to the Custom Shop guitars, they will normally be a lot better than any Mexican guitar.
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  • soma1975soma1975 Frets: 6625
    edited April 2019
    I've owned custom shop strats and played plenty of CS Les Pauls. None displayed what I'm talking about. 
    My Trade Feedback Thread is here

    Been uploading old tracks I recorded ages ago and hopefully some new noodles here.
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  • thegummythegummy Frets: 4389
    soma1975 said:
    jaymenon said:

    To me, this is just more nostalgia and guitar geekery; like the “old violins are much better than new violins”. argument.  Violin aficionados desperately keep looking for reasons to rationalise their belief in this but it never withstands the harsh gaze of scientific scrutiny.’

    It’s nothing of the sort. The old instruments I played all sounded different to modern equivalents. Whether you hear or like that difference is up to you. I’d be ecstatic if my modern Les Paul had had he same quality I found in the older one. Likewise the Strat. I’ve no hand in the game. 

    Frankly, bringing science into it is pointless when discussing something so completely subjective as tone. On paper a Mesa MKV is ‘scientifically’ a far superior amp to a 57 Deluxe. So is a Boss Katana. But I know which I would rather play. 
    Isn't there a well known study where, even though it was generally thought old violins sounded better and players thought they could hear the difference, in a blind test they actually couldn't?

    Science can't say which of two different sounds an individual person would prefer but it can say if the person can tell that there is a difference or, say, could pick a vintage instrument out of 5 samples reliably.
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  • thegummythegummy Frets: 4389
    Freebird said:
    What is the definition of a vintage guitar? I sometimes joke about my 30 year old Les Paul being vintage, but I have no idea what conditions a real vintage guitar must satisfy.
    Don't know what others would say or if there's any kind of official definition but I'd be expecting pre-1980 if I heard vintage.

    I don't like to think I'm vintage and your les Paul is nearly as old as me!

    Maybe there's some joke about trading a vintage wife for a 90s CIJ...
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  • soma1975soma1975 Frets: 6625
    thegummy said:
    soma1975 said:
    jaymenon said:

    To me, this is just more nostalgia and guitar geekery; like the “old violins are much better than new violins”. argument.  Violin aficionados desperately keep looking for reasons to rationalise their belief in this but it never withstands the harsh gaze of scientific scrutiny.’

    It’s nothing of the sort. The old instruments I played all sounded different to modern equivalents. Whether you hear or like that difference is up to you. I’d be ecstatic if my modern Les Paul had had he same quality I found in the older one. Likewise the Strat. I’ve no hand in the game. 

    Frankly, bringing science into it is pointless when discussing something so completely subjective as tone. On paper a Mesa MKV is ‘scientifically’ a far superior amp to a 57 Deluxe. So is a Boss Katana. But I know which I would rather play. 
    Isn't there a well known study where, even though it was generally thought old violins sounded better and players thought they could hear the difference, in a blind test they actually couldn't?

    Science can't say which of two different sounds an individual person would prefer but it can say if the person can tell that there is a difference or, say, could pick a vintage instrument out of 5 samples reliably.
    I think you need to be the person playing them rather than just listening to sound samples.  

    I can make an 8K Red Cinema camera look like Super 8mm film but I couldn't do it the other way around. 


    My Trade Feedback Thread is here

    Been uploading old tracks I recorded ages ago and hopefully some new noodles here.
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  • Winny_PoohWinny_Pooh Frets: 7730
    ronnyb said:
    Some of my guitars are in their cases and i never play them but i get pleasure out of just owning them. It's no different to buying paintings, coins or anything that people collect. 
    I don't have any strong position either way as vintage guitars have always been unaffordable to me.
    But this statement ( I appreciate the honesty! LOL) is why "players" don't often like "collectors". Removing things from a market and storing them away in bulk is in principle (speaking in pure black and white here, the real world is not so clear cut) selfish and directly opposite to the ethos of the creatives they envy and emulate.  
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  • barry2tonebarry2tone Frets: 212
    edited April 2019
    To imagine a point...

    I suggest we start a rumour that vintage guitars, like cars, need playing to keep their tone in tip-top condition.

    Bemoan loudly how dreadful old, unplayed guitars sound at their first outing from the vault. Then talk up the delight when finally the "real" sound comes shining through.  It was worth thrice the hefty price tag!   But only after a couple of months of n hours a day being played.

    Repeat this frequently enough for collectors to become convinced the instrument will only reach peak price with a hefty dose of recent usage.

    And thus it makes financial sense for them to start paying for a player to put some recent mileage on the clock.

    We want the finest guitars available to humanity!   









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  • UnclePsychosisUnclePsychosis Frets: 12879
    thegummy said:
    soma1975 said:
    jaymenon said:

    To me, this is just more nostalgia and guitar geekery; like the “old violins are much better than new violins”. argument.  Violin aficionados desperately keep looking for reasons to rationalise their belief in this but it never withstands the harsh gaze of scientific scrutiny.’

    It’s nothing of the sort. The old instruments I played all sounded different to modern equivalents. Whether you hear or like that difference is up to you. I’d be ecstatic if my modern Les Paul had had he same quality I found in the older one. Likewise the Strat. I’ve no hand in the game. 

    Frankly, bringing science into it is pointless when discussing something so completely subjective as tone. On paper a Mesa MKV is ‘scientifically’ a far superior amp to a 57 Deluxe. So is a Boss Katana. But I know which I would rather play. 
    Isn't there a well known study where, even though it was generally thought old violins sounded better and players thought they could hear the difference, in a blind test they actually couldn't?


    Almost. 

    They got a whole bunch of professional violinists to play a whole bunch of professional level violins - some modern, some "vintage classic" ones like strads. 

    The violinists were able to play the instruments and were asked their preferences in a series of blind tests. A majority of them preferred a modern violin to any old one. They also failed to reliably identify old vs new. 

    The full paper is available online but there's a fairly decent Wikipedia summary:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_preferences_among_new_and_old_violins


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