You "need" ID to vote

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Yeh, right. My mum has never driven a car or had a passport. So even if she waves the voters card that the council sends her at the polling station officialdom she won't be allowed to vote.

Well I guess that's one way of ensuring the EU Referendum result gets overturned, just make sure the people most likely to vote leave (the elderly) can't vote next time.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 32823
    Waiting five years would probably be as effective if that's the reason... and anyway, there won't be a next time.

    It's more likely to be aimed at certain sections of the ethnic minority communities where there is a history of 'patriarch' figures 'proxy voting' for other members of their families whether they like it or not.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • Phil_aka_PipPhil_aka_Pip Frets: 8994
    My mum told me that one day she and my dad walked to the polling station and my dad had said (allegedly) "I think WE should vote <insert party name> today", and my mum said "OK" in acknowledgement that she understood what he was saying, but the way in which she related the incident left me in no doubt that she didn't agree with him and voted differently. I don't believe she let on to my dad that she wasn't going to vote as he said.
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  • littlegreenmanlittlegreenman Frets: 3157
    edited May 4
    I just walked in gave my name and postcode and was given m y polling card. No ID, no hassle.
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  • CirrusCirrus Frets: 3520
    I just walked in gave my name and postcode and was given m y polling card. No ID, no hassle.
    It was being trialed in a few London wards.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11477
    Yeh, right. My mum has never driven a car or had a passport. So even if she waves the voters card that the council sends her at the polling station officialdom she won't be allowed to vote.

    Well I guess that's one way of ensuring the EU Referendum result gets overturned, just make sure the people most likely to vote leave (the elderly) can't vote next time.

    1. There were trials running yesterday. By the sound of it, your mother was not part of them. 
    2. Of the trial locations, Bromley had some issues. But you look at the list of ID:

    http://www.bromley.gov.uk/info/200033/elections_and_voting/1177/voter_id_pilot

    So her lack of passport or driving licence would not automatically mean she couldn't vote. 

    3. Your comment about the EU referendum is daft. If you go by the Bromley list of ID, then old people are more likely to have more sources of ID available to them than young people (mortgage statements for instance).

    4. The Certificate of Identity would also be available to your mother. 

    5. Or she could do a postal vote. 

    Spinning this as 'blocking the old Leave vote' is absurd. 
    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • jpfampsjpfamps Frets: 1417
    edited May 4
    ICBM said:
    Waiting five years would probably be as effective if that's the reason... and anyway, there won't be a next time.

    It's more likely to be aimed at certain sections of the ethnic minority communities where there is a history of 'patriarch' figures 'proxy voting' for other members of their families whether they like it or not.
    I live in Tower Hamlets, and there have been some, shall we say, "voting irregularities" which this would address.

    Presumably if you are really motivated to vote, you would managed to get to the polling station with the correct ID.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11477
    jpfamps said:
    I live in Tower Hamlets, and there have been some, shall we say, "voting irregularities" which this would address.

    Presumably if you are really motivated to vote, you would managed to get to the polling station with the correct ID.
    That all depends on what the 'correct ID' is. If it were as Pip's hypothetical situation stated where the correct ID was either passport or driving licence and no other ID was correct, then that would be a dreadful situation and one I hope Parliament would vote against. 


    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • jpfampsjpfamps Frets: 1417
    jpfamps said:
    I live in Tower Hamlets, and there have been some, shall we say, "voting irregularities" which this would address.

    Presumably if you are really motivated to vote, you would managed to get to the polling station with the correct ID.
    That all depends on what the 'correct ID' is. If it were as Pip's hypothetical situation stated where the correct ID was either passport or driving licence and no other ID was correct, then that would be a dreadful situation and one I hope Parliament would vote against. 


    Indeed. 

    I had neither for about 6 years of my adult life.

    I am personally not in favour of ID cards in any form.

    I was more making the point that if you are complaining about not having the correct ID to vote you can't have been that motivated.


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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 32823
    It's quite a difficult problem if the object is to provide positive - ie photographic - identification, while not restricting the options too much. There really aren't that many common forms of photographic ID that people who don't have a passport, driving licence or some form of work-related security badge might be able to show.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • NiteflyNitefly Frets: 2123
    Bus pass!  But you have to be ooooooooold...

    Grown most uncommonly fat!
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  • Phil_aka_PipPhil_aka_Pip Frets: 8994
    Nitefly said:
    Bus pass!  But you have to be ooooooooold...

    I've not seen my mum's bus pass. Do bus passes have a photo?

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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 8538
    Somebody said on the radio yesterday that the tiny number of people who actually bother to turn out for council elections should be given at least a couple of votes each anyway, whoever they are.
    :)
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16962
    True story:

    In the 1983 general election I ran a polling station in Luton (to earn some extra cash). Not long after we opened a coach arrived and about 25 Pakistani women entered with two men. We had to verify identities which was impossible as the woman didn't want to talk. One of the men did the talking and the other showed them were to tick the box. I objected and was threatened so I called the police.

    The police arrived at the same time another coach load of immigrants arrived and they were able to see it first hand - they did nothing and left. This was a breach of the law. I reported it to the council and simply cross me off the list for future elections and branded me a trouble maker. If you think elections in the UK are fraud free then think again.

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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11477
    Fretwired said:
    True story:

    In the 1983 general election I ran a polling station in Luton (to earn some extra cash). Not long after we opened a coach arrived and about 25 Pakistani women entered with two men. We had to verify identities which was impossible as the woman didn't want to talk. One of the men did the talking and the other showed them were to tick the box. I objected and was threatened so I called the police.

    The police arrived at the same time another coach load of immigrants arrived and they were able to see it first hand - they did nothing and left. This was a breach of the law. I reported it to the council and simply cross me off the list for future elections and branded me a trouble maker. If you think elections in the UK are fraud free then think again.


    No election is fraud free. But I would imagine the measures to combat fraud are significantly higher than they were in 1983. 

    Under the letter of the law you were quite right to object and to call the police. I've brought the law in once to a polling station and didn't care less who kicked up a fuss. I was working on Thursday, first time I've done a London one, and one difference from Bristol is that the police visit all of the polling stations throughout the day. We had three visits and these are all recorded. 

    I'm still feeling a tad frosty after Thursday's election as the senior presiding officer assigned to the dual station I was working at was shite. When someone is being paid far more than you and you're doing their work, it is right to be frosty. 
    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • Phil_aka_PipPhil_aka_Pip Frets: 8994
    AFAIK you're allowed to vote even if you don't have your poll card with you. You just have to tell them your name and address. They could at least demand your poll card to let you vote, and you have to hand it back when you vote.
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16962
    edited May 5


    No election is fraud free. But I would imagine the measures to combat fraud are significantly higher than they were in 1983. 

    Under the letter of the law you were quite right to object and to call the police. I've brought the law in once to a polling station and didn't care less who kicked up a fuss. I was working on Thursday, first time I've done a London one, and one difference from Bristol is that the police visit all of the polling stations throughout the day. We had three visits and these are all recorded. 

    I'm still feeling a tad frosty after Thursday's election as the senior presiding officer assigned to the dual station I was working at was shite. When someone is being paid far more than you and you're doing their work, it is right to be frosty. 
    I'd say it's worse - we now have postal votes. Social media makes it easier for people to 'swap' votes - one guy claims to have voted four times in 2015.

    And the Met totally cocked up the Lutfur Rahman investigation and missed widespread election fraud.

    https://www.london.gov.uk/about-us/london-assembly/london-assemblys-current-investigations/electoral-fraud

    And this ..

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/11/election-fraud-allowed-to-take-place-in-muslim-communities-becau/



    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11477
    Fretwired said:
    I'd say it's worse - we now have postal votes. Social media makes it easier for people to 'swap' votes - one guy claims to have voted four times in 2015.

    And the Met totally cocked up the Lutfur Rahman investigation and missed widespread election fraud.

    https://www.london.gov.uk/about-us/london-assembly/london-assemblys-current-investigations/electoral-fraud

    And this ..

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/11/election-fraud-allowed-to-take-place-in-muslim-communities-becau/




    I said that measures to combat fraud would be higher than in 1983. The case in Luton you outlined would be far harder for the perps in question provided the presiding officers and poll clerks on duty were diligent (ie. as stubborn as I am. Families in my polling station wanting to talk to one another whilst voting, beware!). 

    Lutfur Rahman was and is a crook and it is a travesty that he hasn't received a criminal conviction for what he did. It also sits with the Electoral Commission's 2014 report that fraud tends to be committed in local government elections and by candidates and supporters (the 2005 Birmingham local elections being a case in point). 

    There is a real stigma to postal votes. From what I saw doing the Bristol postal vote opening and counting a few years back and observed the computer systems in action, postal voting is quite well scrutinised. Technology in action and all that. But there is also a huge stigma with postal votes itself. At both my train last month and on election day, hearing election staff query why people who sign up for a postal vote end up delivering it at their polling station was really quite annoying. I've done it for years because of my chef work at the time. I didn't have a consistent work schedule or flexi time. There was no guarantee that I could reach my polling station come election day so the postal vote was a good compromise. If I know I'm going to be off work, I can drop it in. If not, then I can post off in good time for the election. More and more people have work schedules that aren't "9 to 5 M-F" and so it stands to reason that more people will register for postal votes. 

    As the EC said:

    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/164609/Electoral-fraud-review-final-report.pdf

    "2.7 The evidence from our research with members of the public suggests that people do not have a deep understanding about electoral fraud but they do have a general concern about the possibility of fraud taking place. 4 Views are rarely influenced by first-hand experience of electoral fraud and are more likely to be based on cases reported by the media and people’s own set of assumptions, some of them unfounded. "

    I think that's quite true.Since the Rahman case, there is far greater tie-ups between council tax registration and the electoral roll. The system is not perfect but it is getting there. The 2017 EC report details how there is no standard electoral management software system. This has been quite apparent here in Sutton as the process for me as both voter and election worker has been really cackhanded compared to my four years and a bit in Bristol doing likewise. It would be interesting to see what best practice is issued to councils for conducting elections of any nature when it comes to electronic databases and records. 
    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11477
    AFAIK you're allowed to vote even if you don't have your poll card with you. You just have to tell them your name and address. They could at least demand your poll card to let you vote, and you have to hand it back when you vote.
    As one of "they" on Thursday, I can tell you how I did it. If someone came without a polling card, then I got the address first. When I have found that in my list, I ask for their full name including middle names. Most people without a card come with ID on them. For example, I saw a lot of EU identity cards with photos on them on Thursday. If I have doubts, I ask for additional ID. 

    As every ballot paper is numbered and linked to a voter number, any suspicious activity will show up. If I'd had a large number of people turning up on Thursday lacking poll cards, any decent ID, and were rather sketchy about name and address then it would have been a judgement call between myself and the senior presiding officer as to whether to issue ballot papers. 

    If we decided to issue papers, then we have the option of listing in the station log book any incidents we thought worthy of attention. I could list the ballot paper number and given voter number along with a descriptor of the individual in case something came up later, such as someone coming in with a polling card for that number and ID confirming their identity and thus confirming that someone had nicked their vote. As every station has a direct number to election HQ in the council, any issues could be flagged up way before the count took place. When you have small voter numbers, dodgy behaviour stands out. 
    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • NiteflyNitefly Frets: 2123
    Nitefly said:
    Bus pass!  But you have to be ooooooooold...

    I've not seen my mum's bus pass. Do bus passes have a photo?

    Mine does - it's a Greater Manchester one, but I would have thought they would all be of the same format, regardless of issuing authority.

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  • ColsCols Frets: 293
    I genuinely don’t see what the problem is here.  We’ve needed ID to vote in Northern Ireland for ages.

    I need photo ID to fly anywhere, to drive a car, take out a mobile phone contract, open a bank account.  Is electing somebody to represent me in government somehow less important than these?
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  • Phil_aka_PipPhil_aka_Pip Frets: 8994
    @Cols they send us a Polling Card, addressed to each voter personally at their home address, but they don't demand to see it at the Polling Station. If they did, then there would be a lot less clamour for driving licences, passports and the like. The problem with driving licences and passports is that not everybody drives, and not everybody holds a passport. Until recently I had no passport and for a long time couldn't find my driving licence, but I was quite happy to take my Polling Card to the Polling Station. That's what it's for, not a problem.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 32823
    @Cols they send us a Polling Card, addressed to each voter personally at their home address, but they don't demand to see it at the Polling Station. If they did, then there would be a lot less clamour for driving licences, passports and the like. The problem with driving licences and passports is that not everybody drives, and not everybody holds a passport. Until recently I had no passport and for a long time couldn't find my driving licence, but I was quite happy to take my Polling Card to the Polling Station. That's what it's for, not a problem.
    The problem being that someone else from the same household can take that polling card to the station and vote for you.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • ColsCols Frets: 293
    ICBM said:
    @Cols they send us a Polling Card, addressed to each voter personally at their home address, but they don't demand to see it at the Polling Station. If they did, then there would be a lot less clamour for driving licences, passports and the like. The problem with driving licences and passports is that not everybody drives, and not everybody holds a passport. Until recently I had no passport and for a long time couldn't find my driving licence, but I was quite happy to take my Polling Card to the Polling Station. That's what it's for, not a problem.
    The problem being that someone else from the same household can take that polling card to the station and vote for you.
    Precisely.

    In Northern Ireland you don’t need to have a passport or a driving licence to vote; you can get a photographic electoral ID card free of charge.
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  • Phil_aka_PipPhil_aka_Pip Frets: 8994
    Cols said:
    ICBM said:
    @Cols they send us a Polling Card, addressed to each voter personally at their home address, but they don't demand to see it at the Polling Station. If they did, then there would be a lot less clamour for driving licences, passports and the like. The problem with driving licences and passports is that not everybody drives, and not everybody holds a passport. Until recently I had no passport and for a long time couldn't find my driving licence, but I was quite happy to take my Polling Card to the Polling Station. That's what it's for, not a problem.
    The problem being that someone else from the same household can take that polling card to the station and vote for you.
    Precisely.

    In Northern Ireland you don’t need to have a passport or a driving licence to vote; you can get a photographic electoral ID card free of charge.
    That strikes me as a good idea
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11477
    @Cols they send us a Polling Card, addressed to each voter personally at their home address, but they don't demand to see it at the Polling Station. If they did, then there would be a lot less clamour for driving licences, passports and the like. The problem with driving licences and passports is that not everybody drives, and not everybody holds a passport. Until recently I had no passport and for a long time couldn't find my driving licence, but I was quite happy to take my Polling Card to the Polling Station. That's what it's for, not a problem.

    No it isn't what it's for. A polling card is not a proof of identity as it ultimately proves your identity no more than taking a bank card along. A polling card's primary purpose is to notify the voter of the date of the election and where their polling station is. 

    So if you were to come to my polling station, I would ask you questions as I listed earlier. Your polling card would be utterly irrelevant. If you wished to show me other ID such as a utility letter confirming your address, I'd happily accept that.

    @Cols it seems like NI has a good system. The issue for me for elections outside of NI is that the notion of a free election is put into question if you rely on paid for documentation so much with passports and driving licences. I know that the proportion of people without a driving licence or passport is small but the principle should still remain. Hopefully we'll take on a scheme like the NI election card. 
    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • WhitecatWhitecat Frets: 1945
    edited May 10
    The areas that were doing photo trials in England were offering polling ID cards for free if you absolutely had none of the other acceptable forms of ID (they would even accept expired ID as long as the photo likeness was reasonable). Edit: maybe not all areas but mine (Woking) was!

    But it is a solution in search of a problem. Voter fraud is so close to zero here it looks more like an attempt at defacto gerrymandering by trying to exclude those of the population who are least likely to have the ID required. I actually think it's somewhat ironic that the exclusion of the older generation who might be more likely to vote Conservative has perhaps been an unintended consequence.

    If they could prove that voter fraud was actually a major issue I might be convinced otherwise, but in this country it just isn't at the moment. The argument "you need photo ID to do other things" doesn't quite work for me as all those "other things" are usually activities of privilege - driving, travelling, etc - whereas voting should be an absolute basic right.

    Not that they will but I think they should introduce PR (not that half-arsed stupid AV version we voted on a while back though) and compulsory voting before worrying about stuff like this.
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  • Phil_aka_PipPhil_aka_Pip Frets: 8994
    Whitecat said:
    I think they should introduce PR (not that half-arsed stupid AV version we voted on a while back though).
    Agreed!
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11477
    I'm not sure whether that was true of all trial areas. Swindon Council didn't list any polling ID cards other than the North Ireland card. Having the ability to bring someone along to testify as to your identity though sounds like a hoot. 

    Whitecat is right and sums it up very well about activities of privilege. Politicians are elected by the people and so keeping the right to vote as something that does not require financial expense on the part of the voter is paramount. 

    Yes to PR. Always. 
    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • axisusaxisus Frets: 10912
    This is so unfair. I've never had any photo ID or passport. I've a good mind to swim back to Syria.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11477
    axisus said:
    This is so unfair. I've never had any photo ID or passport. I've a good mind to swim back to Syria.
    If you'd managed to swim here from Syria, then I imagine you'd be welcome to stay as one of our future gold medal prospects. 
    Clarity over quantity.  
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