Live sound..

impmann

Do you have a sound man?
Also - a suggestion... Invest in a wireless set up and wander around the pub whilst playing your soundcheck if you are concerned about your FOH sound.
As for mic'd cabs in pubs - it depends on the size. We're reducing out on stage volumes or at least trying, and have gone from 50w+ back line blasting to 15-20w back line mic'd and its much better, plus there is control - we have a sound man, which is essential for that.
So far, the feedback from the audiences is that we have never sounded better. So I'd suggest there's no hard n fast rules on this.

hywelg

John_P said:

I think the first thing you need to do is step into the room during a soundcheck and see what the FOH sound is like.

This.

Have you ever been out front with a long lead to hear yourself? I was shocked, the beam was awful and if your guys were in that beam (if there is one) and dont know it exists they would indeed be unimpressed. Hence I installed Mitchell Donuts and as soon as we start gigging again I will be using a plexi screen.

ICBM

Danny1969 said:

It's not the speakers, but rather how you EQ and tame the signals that you feed them. People often have the misconception that a speaker has to reproduce a drum and guitar and a vocal all at the same time in some crazy multi tasking fashion. That's not how audio works, all the various different different signals in term of amplitude and frequency are combined into a new waveform which is reproduced .... as long as your not asking the speaker to extend beyond it's frequency response and SPL rating it doesn't matter if your asking the speaker to reproduce one vocal or 12 guitars and 1 vocal

That's true, but you will still get a clearer sound if you put less through them in terms of signal complexity and bandwidth, unless the system capability is far above the level it's running at - which it doesn't sound like it is, running a full band mix through that set-up.

Danny1969

@Si_

If your using SRM450's ? then engage the high pass filter on the rear and make sure the contours out. That will keep out everything below 75hz, and let the sub do the low end

@ICBM

Fair point for cheap PA's   ... and god knows there's a lot of bands out with with awful gear driving it to death

If he's using the SRM rig though then it's more than capable of amplifying the whole band complete with all drums. I gig'ed NY eve in a large 800 capacity club with ours and it was more than capable. That is with a powerful digital desk though and an FOH man who knows what he's doing. That's the key, get things under control dynamics wise before it hits the PA. Mixing live music is no different from studio mixing, you can't just let everything through it needs to be refined in terms of EQ and reigned in dynamics wise so there's aren't any huge transient swings eating all your headroom. 

 

Drew_TNBD

You really don't need to put overheads through the PA either. Cymbals are LOUD as fuck.

Also, I nearly always roll off my treble and presence on the amp when I am turned up to a loud volume. When I am mic'd up, I'd rather have a slightly darker tone on stage and not hit the FOH with lots of fizz.

Also, chances are the engineer will go utterly hog-wild if they're micing you up, and will utterly crank the guitars in the FOH *and* the monitors, and will then claim you're too loud. I've lost count the number of times I've told the FOH guy to kill my guitar in the monitors, and suddenly I'm not too loud anymore.

For a live guitar sound, monitors are the number one culprit for excessive treble, and people tend to think it doesn't matter because the crowd wont hear it, only the band will. BULL FUCKING SHIT.

My ideal is to just keep things as simple as possible - don't have the guitar being routed to several different places at once (phase issues, speaker distortion, etc..) and let the amplifiers do their job.

The main problem with small pubs and sound engineers is that the sound engineer is not a sound engineer. They are a guitarist. This leads to fails all over the shop, because guitarists do not understand sound.

Si_

We don't have a sound engineer and mix from the side of the stage. I know it's not ideal but needs must, most covers bands I know are in the same situation. 

Lots of things to think about here, and i'll defiantly try some of them at the next gig in a few weeks and see if it improves.

Cirrus

My live sound credo is simple - start with a well balanced backline, and add sound reinforcement through the PA as required.

So, get the guitar amps, bass amps, keyboards etc up to a level that balances nicely with the unamplified drum sound. The loss of clinical front of house mixing control is more than made up for by the way that lets you actually play as a band and interact musically, plus it makes it harder for a bad FOH sound to ruin your gig - you've made sure that even sans PA+monitors you actually sound like a band and can hear each other.

It's when you have the guitar way down that you start having to crank it in the PA making it a more complex mix job, and putting instruments back in monitors murks up the stage sound and makes performing and interacting naturally more of a challenge.

Generally our best sounding gigs, and the ones we feel most comfortable doing, are the ones where we've only needed vocals in the monitors and the PA reinforces certain aspects of our sound to fill the room nicely (and obviously as the room gets bigger the PA takes on more of the heavy lifting). When we have to turn right down and get our instrument sound blasting back in our faces over the drums I've noticed friends are much more likely to comment that some aspect of the mix was off.

And that kind of makes sense, because the further the backline sound is from what we're aiming for the more we're relying on a sound guy to put on a performance and turn the noise we're making into a good mix. That means the end product is four guys who practice 6 hours a week and have gigged together for 5 years, and one guy who's never heard the band before and is totally winging it. If the backline defines the mix then the band performance becomes the mix - the sound guy doesn't have to do much guessing as the band are defining their own sound.

And I think it was Daniel Lanois who said a good performance equals a good mix.

bigjon

I gig with a large 1x12 combo on a level amp stand, with a lunchbox amp and its extension cab sitting on top of it angled left and right at about 45 degrees, to spread the sound across the stage.

bigjon

Another approach I've used when I don't trust the sound engineers is to go through two roughly equivalent amps, one of which is miked to give the sound crew what they want and the other is available to me to override, especially in the nine-piece soul band when they would never turn me up enough for the solos!

Danny1969

We've always used our engineers, in all the bands I'm in there's a dedicated sound engineer who knows the band, the songs and how to present us in the best light. Even when we did that huge 100K people FA cup gig we used our own sound engineer. I understand the cost aspect but I think it's worth it. Even for a lowly £250 pub gig I would (and do) happily pay someone £50 to mix it

I can understand getting a rough mix from the stage  for a kind of simple AC DC type sound, where every song is pounding 2 guitars, bass and drums but for more complex stuff the mix needs to change throughout the set ... especially BV wise, vocal treatment and keys. When I'm mixing a gig I don't even keep the drums the same level, a bit of variation adds interest. 

Your own monitor mix these days is pretty easy, I can do mine from my iphone

Si_

I've been looking around for a suitable amp stand to get my head and cab off the ground (rather than using beer crates or chairs), I've only found 1 so far that can take the weight (around 95lbs), the . Do you think this is any good? 

I'm not sure it's raising it enough to be worthwhile, but the slight tilt might help with dialling in the sound as it's more pointing towards me.

Thoughts?

crunchman

Given the layout that the OP said the hall was in, it's probably difficult to get a decent spread of sound throughout the hall without mic'ing the amp.  At the church I play at regularly we set up along the long side of the room.  I can get more than enough volume from the amp, but the problem is that the people stood straight in front of me get blasted, and the people at the sides can't hear me. - so you end up having to mic the amp.

You are at the mercy of the sound engineer, and some of the ones in church are not the best.  They are volunteers doing it to help out, but mic'ing is the least bad option.

I'm seriously thinking of buying a Kemper when I can get the funds together.  There's a band I saw live in 2011 and again in 2012 in the same venue.  The first time the guitarist used a Marshall half stack, and the second time he used a Kemper.  The FOH sound was much better with the Kemper.

One other thing, as noted above, the sound in the venue can be very different with 150 or so bodies in there than when it's empty.

EricTheWeary

@Si_ I have a similar stand. I think there are two things of note:

- it does change the sound compared to being on a floor, generally takes away bass so you might not like it.

- the steeper the angle the more likely you are to be playing at the ceiling (especially if you are on a stage already)so something like a beer crate or chair might actually work better.

Although can't say this was ever a great success with my band one idea is to get the band to set up as live instead of a rehearsal and work some of this stuff out. So instead of going to the rehearsal room one week go to a rented room in a pub with all your PA,etc ( you might get it in return for getting a round in). If you can stand in front of where the sound is coming from ( long lead, wireless or use a looper)and hear it in context that's the best as it is how the audience hear it.

You might still want to mic up or have a line out just for the monitors,just not going out front. Typically drummers can't hear a guitar combo so a bit of that in their monitor can help. 

ESBlonde

One significant advantage to being mic'd up. A 12" guitar speaker cone beams treble like a b'stard. The same sound through a PA cab and horn has a more even dispersion of the mids and treble and better energy levels. For long but narrow width way rooms this makes a lot of difference.
Again facing the cab back at you and bouncing it off the back wall/ceiling disperses it nicely.

Si_

I might invest in some beam blockers..

Catthan

That's what I'll get when my head cab arrives

http://www.quiklok.it/viewdoc.asp?co_id=80234&pid=92424

or smth like those speaker tilt frames

http://tiltaspeaker.com/about-us/product-description/

although if one considers the import cost this doesn't look like great VFM.

Si_

the speaker tilt thing is no good, my Bogner cab already has a tilt to the speakers, there not straight 90 degrees to the floor. 

the foam Doughnuts sound alike a plausible option, but there not something you can buy and I'm not into DIY.

EricTheWeary

http://www.guitarplayer.com/miscellaneous/1139/gretchen-menn-on-managing-stage-volume-and-saving-your-ears/22430

I posted this link back in MR days, quite succinct and useful I thought.

p90fool

Reading all this, I'm so glad I went direct two years ago. Everything in our band goes through the PA in pub gigs except the bass.
Both guitars are direct via modellers. We have one mix, everybody in the band and the audience hears the the same thing all the time, no mess, no fuss.

That means I can mix from the stage in full confidence that what I'm doing is working fine. We're about the only pub band locally who always have great-sounding intelligible vocals and guitars which don't take your head off/completely disappear depending on where you're standing. We also use an Arbiter Flats kit, because in a pub gig the drums dictate the volume of the band, and now people don't have to leave the room/pub if they just want a fun night out with their mates, or just to be able to order a drink without sign language.

I love my valve amps so going direct was a big step, but I never had such a consistently great sound night after night in pubs before now, I was forever tweaking and messing with my gear, buying and trying new stuff, and was always left feeling it should've sounded better.

Apart from big shows (where good valve amps are unbeatable), we haven't neede to do a soundcheck since the August before last, we just plug in and play.

Moe_Zambeek

Get a flight case for the head and use that as an amp stand. Kills two birds with one stone...