Autumn general election - Tories on war footing

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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 3829
    Whitecat said:
    Fretwired said:
    Whitecat said:
    Fretwired said:

    If you leave the EU you leave the Single Market. The only way around it is to join EFTA or negotiate with the EU. During the campaign the EU and the Remain campaign made it clear that if the UK left the EU it left the Single Market. This was the core of the Remain argument. It doesn't mean you can't export goods to the EU. Just means there would be tariffs. The EU currently trades with countries all over the world on WTO terms.


    Uhhh, what's the EEA then? That's really the single market. And it's a separate treaty to the EU. And it was not on the ballot paper.
    The EEA is made up of the members of the EU (which we're leaving) and EFTA. The only route open to the UK would be to join EFTA. Were the UK to negotiate a deal to remain in the EEA then we would effectively be members of the EU without voting rights. Madness.
    Yes, EEA is de facto EU membership, but it's still not actually EU membership, it's a separate treaty, and it still could be seen as a "soft" Brexit. I think that's what's gonna happen in the end, and nobody will be happy.

    As someone who voted leave, I'd rather remain than sign up for that.  Like I said above, and repeatedly in other threads, that's the worst of all worlds.  We would have to accept EU rules but have no say in framing them.  Also, as I've said at least twice further up this thread, EFTA/EEA is a complete non-starter as it will require freedom of movement.
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  • WhitecatWhitecat Frets: 1951
    crunchman said:
    Whitecat said:
    Fretwired said:
    Whitecat said:
    Fretwired said:

    If you leave the EU you leave the Single Market. The only way around it is to join EFTA or negotiate with the EU. During the campaign the EU and the Remain campaign made it clear that if the UK left the EU it left the Single Market. This was the core of the Remain argument. It doesn't mean you can't export goods to the EU. Just means there would be tariffs. The EU currently trades with countries all over the world on WTO terms.


    Uhhh, what's the EEA then? That's really the single market. And it's a separate treaty to the EU. And it was not on the ballot paper.
    The EEA is made up of the members of the EU (which we're leaving) and EFTA. The only route open to the UK would be to join EFTA. Were the UK to negotiate a deal to remain in the EEA then we would effectively be members of the EU without voting rights. Madness.
    Yes, EEA is de facto EU membership, but it's still not actually EU membership, it's a separate treaty, and it still could be seen as a "soft" Brexit. I think that's what's gonna happen in the end, and nobody will be happy.

    As someone who voted leave, I'd rather remain than sign up for that.  Like I said above, and repeatedly in other threads, that's the worst of all worlds.  We would have to accept EU rules but have no say in framing them.  Also, as I've said at least twice further up this thread, EFTA/EEA is a complete non-starter as it will require freedom of movement.
    Yep, it is bad for everyone - but I disagree that it's a non-starter, I still think it's the likeliest of all outcomes at the moment. The Tories will be able to say they left the EU, and big business, who funds them, will get their single market. We'll find out soon enough.
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  • jpfampsjpfamps Frets: 1420
    edited May 22

    In the industry I work in (consumer electronics), if we want to trade with the EU (and I assume we do) then we'll have to comply with whatever regulations the EU sees fit to impose; however NOT being in the EU means we now have absolutely no input into the nature of these regs.

    Other industries (eg food production) are in the same boat.

    Not sure how this would be taking back control.....


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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16993
    Whitecat said:
    Fretwired said:
    Whitecat said:
    Fretwired said:

    If you leave the EU you leave the Single Market. The only way around it is to join EFTA or negotiate with the EU. During the campaign the EU and the Remain campaign made it clear that if the UK left the EU it left the Single Market. This was the core of the Remain argument. It doesn't mean you can't export goods to the EU. Just means there would be tariffs. The EU currently trades with countries all over the world on WTO terms.


    Uhhh, what's the EEA then? That's really the single market. And it's a separate treaty to the EU. And it was not on the ballot paper.
    The EEA is made up of the members of the EU (which we're leaving) and EFTA. The only route open to the UK would be to join EFTA. Were the UK to negotiate a deal to remain in the EEA then we would effectively be members of the EU without voting rights. Madness.
    Yes, EEA is de facto EU membership, but it's still not actually EU membership, it's a separate treaty, and it still could be seen as a "soft" Brexit. I think that's what's gonna happen in the end, and nobody will be happy.
    EEA is not available off the shelf. The EU and UK would have to negotiate and I'm not sure the EU would want to offer it to the UK. What happens if Italy wants to leave? The EU can do without the UK but Italy a whole new ball game. They are Eurozone members.  EEA would also be a shit deal for the UK - it's basically EU membership with no say.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 3829
    jpfamps said:

    In the industry I work in (consumer electronics), if we want to trade with the EU (and I assume we do) then we'll have to comply with whatever regulations the EU sees fit to impose; however NOT being in the EU means we now have absolutely no input into the nature of these regs.

    Other industries (eg food production) are in the same boat.

    Not sure how this would be taking back control.....



    On the other hand, if the EU decides to ban valve amps in a fit of environmentalism, you will be able to keep on making them.  It works both ways.

    It would give us scope for changing other things as well.  There are a few transport issues I can think of.  Lorry cab design being one of them.  Changes to lorry cabs to improve visibility so that they see cyclists and pedestrians are going to take years because of all the EU bureaucracy.

    Another one is electric bikes.  If you look at all of the debates we have had about transport, one of the things that would really help is if electric bikes were a better alternative.  As it is, they are limited to 15mph by EU rules.  In Canada, and some US states, they are allowed to do 20mph.  If we allowed them to do 20mph, they would become the fastest method of commuting for a very large number of people, and a lot of people would get out of their cars.  Try to get that change through the EU - no chance.  If we control our own regulations, we can change it and adopt the Canadian standard if we want to. 

    If we change the rules on electric bikes, then there is nothing to stop a manufacturer based here from making a bike that meets EU rules for export.  It would probably be the same bike with a different governor on it.

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  • jpfampsjpfamps Frets: 1420
    crunchman said:
    jpfamps said:

    In the industry I work in (consumer electronics), if we want to trade with the EU (and I assume we do) then we'll have to comply with whatever regulations the EU sees fit to impose; however NOT being in the EU means we now have absolutely no input into the nature of these regs.

    Other industries (eg food production) are in the same boat.

    Not sure how this would be taking back control.....



    On the other hand, if the EU decides to ban valve amps in a fit of environmentalism, you will be able to keep on making them.  It works both ways.

    It would give us scope for changing other things as well.  There are a few transport issues I can think of.  Lorry cab design being one of them.  Changes to lorry cabs to improve visibility so that they see cyclists and pedestrians are going to take years because of all the EU bureaucracy.

    Another one is electric bikes.  If you look at all of the debates we have had about transport, one of the things that would really help is if electric bikes were a better alternative.  As it is, they are limited to 15mph by EU rules.  In Canada, and some US states, they are allowed to do 20mph.  If we allowed them to do 20mph, they would become the fastest method of commuting for a very large number of people, and a lot of people would get out of their cars.  Try to get that change through the EU - no chance.  If we control our own regulations, we can change it and adopt the Canadian standard if we want to. 

    If we change the rules on electric bikes, then there is nothing to stop a manufacturer based here from making a bike that meets EU rules for export.  It would probably be the same bike with a different governor on it.


    I understand where you're coming from on this, however I'm not convinced that in a globalized market having a separate set of regs for the UK market is of any advantage; indeed in the past this sort of regulatory regime was used to hinder trade (ie non tariff barriers).

    Any company with an aspiration to trade internationally would have to comply with EU regs anyway.

    The EU is certainly not perfect, and it's a shame that we haven't had more positive influence.
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  • exocetexocet Frets: 558
    edited May 22
    jpfamps said:
    crunchman said:
    jpfamps said:

    In the industry I work in (consumer electronics), if we want to trade with the EU (and I assume we do) then we'll have to comply with whatever regulations the EU sees fit to impose; however NOT being in the EU means we now have absolutely no input into the nature of these regs.

    Other industries (eg food production) are in the same boat.

    Not sure how this would be taking back control.....



    On the other hand, if the EU decides to ban valve amps in a fit of environmentalism, you will be able to keep on making them.  It works both ways.

    It would give us scope for changing other things as well.  There are a few transport issues I can think of.  Lorry cab design being one of them.  Changes to lorry cabs to improve visibility so that they see cyclists and pedestrians are going to take years because of all the EU bureaucracy.

    Another one is electric bikes.  If you look at all of the debates we have had about transport, one of the things that would really help is if electric bikes were a better alternative.  As it is, they are limited to 15mph by EU rules.  In Canada, and some US states, they are allowed to do 20mph.  If we allowed them to do 20mph, they would become the fastest method of commuting for a very large number of people, and a lot of people would get out of their cars.  Try to get that change through the EU - no chance.  If we control our own regulations, we can change it and adopt the Canadian standard if we want to. 

    If we change the rules on electric bikes, then there is nothing to stop a manufacturer based here from making a bike that meets EU rules for export.  It would probably be the same bike with a different governor on it.


    I understand where you're coming from on this, however I'm not convinced that in a globalized market having a separate set of regs for the UK market is of any advantage; indeed in the past this sort of regulatory regime was used to hinder trade (ie non tariff barriers).

    Any company with an aspiration to trade internationally would have to comply with EU regs anyway.

    The EU is certainly not perfect, and it's a shame that we haven't had more positive influence.
    I'm with you on this. Whilst there is a lot that we "could do" in theory - given the freedom to do so once out of the EU, in practice we won't because it won't be cost effective. Our manufacturers will comply will "global standards" - we won't design new lorry cabs because there won't be a market for them and I don't believe that U.K industry is of the mindset to create new markets in that way - too much investment required, too much risk - let someone else do it.

    I'm also of a view that the U.K did far too much of "EU says no so we can't do it any more"......other EU countries flout such directives regularly. I was in a smoking pub in Copenhagen at the weekend, went to one in Germany last year......the Danish one was great, just a casual reminder about how low level smoking masked the other "human odours" generated. The German pub was another world altogether......I could hardly see for the "fog".

    Electric Bikes? They'll come from China anyway and there probably is a governor on a few models than can be "defeated" already?

    I can't think of many areas where the U.K will be able to deviate from external Global Standards if it wants to be successful in future, as the EU is our closest market for physical goods, we will have to comply with their standards anyway unless we want to cut ourselves off altogether.

    I am still waiting for the bold vision of the future to be sold to me, if I hear JRM touting cheaper "Food, Clothing and Footwear" one more time I'm likely to punch someone!
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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 3829
    exocet said:

    Electric Bikes? They'll come from China anyway and there probably is a governor on a few models than can be "defeated" already?

    Yes.  You regularly see them doing well over 15mph in London.  I would estimate that some of them are doing well over 20mph.  There would be less incentive to override it if they were allowed to do 20mph though.  It would be safer with a factory fitted 20mph than with a bodged override.

    On something like that though, there is no worldwide standard.  Canada and some US states allow 20mph.

    As far as I know, Fender have 2 versions of the DRRI.  The US version still has the optocoupler, while the EU version has a digital circuit for the trem due to ROHS.  Companies can make different models for different markets if they want.

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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16993
    A lot of standards are becoming global, especially when it comes to things the UK are good at like drugs. I don't see this as a problem.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • exocetexocet Frets: 558
    edited May 22
    crunchman said:
    exocet said:

    Electric Bikes? They'll come from China anyway and there probably is a governor on a few models than can be "defeated" already?

    As far as I know, Fender have 2 versions of the DRRI.  The US version still has the optocoupler, while the EU version has a digital circuit for the trem due to ROHS.  Companies can make different models for different markets if they want.

    Re: Fender, probably true ( I don't know for certain) but if two models are made to different specs for different markets....in that example it's a case of "U.S = Large Market, EU = Large Market". For many things it won't make economic sense for UK deviation from whatever the global standard is.....unless we are prepared to pay more. If Mr Gove is to be believed, the U.K is going to increase Environmental Standards....on that basis, I don't see non ROSHH compliant Opto Devices making a reappearance
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11495
    edited May 22
    Fretwired said:
    Technically people voted for a hard Brexit as the question was simple. It did not mention a deal of any kind.
    If you have a vote to leave a nightclub and there is nothing about the specifics in that vote, then the nature of the departure  could range from 'a champagne departure accompanied by a string quartet to serenade you as our hostesses guide you to a waiting limo' to "Big Kenny takes you out back, pummels you for half an hour, and then dumps you in the gutter with a cheery "Get orf my manor".  

    D

    Just look at this thread. There is no definitive answer on what we voted on no matter what I or Fret or ICBM or anyone can claim. It's an open ambiguous question: Remain or Leave. A question only that then informs the Government and Parliament and then they should vote on the path we take as a result of this question. As I've said before, it should have been a multi-stage referendum process. Ref 1: Remain or Leave. Ref 2: plan presented by government: yes or no? Ref 3 - if needed and so on.  
    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11495
    crunchman said:

    Another one is electric bikes.  If you look at all of the debates we have had about transport, one of the things that would really help is if electric bikes were a better alternative.  As it is, they are limited to 15mph by EU rules.  In Canada, and some US states, they are allowed to do 20mph.  If we allowed them to do 20mph, they would become the fastest method of commuting for a very large number of people, and a lot of people would get out of their cars.  Try to get that change through the EU - no chance.  If we control our own regulations, we can change it and adopt the Canadian standard if we want to. 

    If we change the rules on electric bikes, then there is nothing to stop a manufacturer based here from making a bike that meets EU rules for export.  It would probably be the same bike with a different governor on it.

    How do Germany have electric bikes that go well above 30mph then?


    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • exocetexocet Frets: 558
    crunchman said:

    Another one is electric bikes.  If you look at all of the debates we have had about transport, one of the things that would really help is if electric bikes were a better alternative.  As it is, they are limited to 15mph by EU rules.  In Canada, and some US states, they are allowed to do 20mph.  If we allowed them to do 20mph, they would become the fastest method of commuting for a very large number of people, and a lot of people would get out of their cars.  Try to get that change through the EU - no chance.  If we control our own regulations, we can change it and adopt the Canadian standard if we want to. 

    If we change the rules on electric bikes, then there is nothing to stop a manufacturer based here from making a bike that meets EU rules for export.  It would probably be the same bike with a different governor on it.

    How do Germany have electric bikes that go well above 30mph then?


    Probably similar to the one I made using a Chinese 500watt powered wheel.....absolutely lethal :)
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16993
    Fretwired said:
    Technically people voted for a hard Brexit as the question was simple. It did not mention a deal of any kind.
    If you have a vote to leave a nightclub and there is nothing about the specifics in that vote, then the nature of the departure  could range from 'a champagne departure accompanied by a string quartet to serenade you as our hostesses guide you to a waiting limo' to "Big Kenny takes you out back, pummels you for half an hour, and then dumps you in the gutter with a cheery "Get orf my manor".  

    D

    Just look at this thread. There is no definitive answer on what we voted on no matter what I or Fret or ICBM or anyone can claim. It's an open ambiguous question: Remain or Leave. A question only that then informs the Government and Parliament and then they should vote on the path we take as a result of this question. As I've said before, it should have been a multi-stage referendum process. Ref 1: Remain or Leave. Ref 2: plan presented by government: yes or no? Ref 3 - if needed and so on.  
    The EU is not a nightclub, or a golf club or a marriage. The British people said leave. The British government tells the EU we're leaving and we leave. It's not rocket science.

    The EU want money to cover costs already committed - fair enough, and guarantees for EU nationals in the UK (we can agree a quid quo pro for UK nationals in the EU) and that's about it. We would need a transition period to enlarge customs systems (they are already in place as we export around the world from UK ports).

    That's it.

    Simplistic, but that's it. The problems start when the likes of May wants to keep the best bits of membership. If I were the EU I'd tell her to fuck off and remain in the EU or else just fuck off. And given the rise of the 5-Star Movement and the anti-EU sentiment in the east, plus Turkey's vow to protect Muslims in the EU my bet is the big fuck off is heading our way any day. The EU can't cut the UK an advantageous deal.

    But here we are seemingly bogged down by a PM who thinks she's head of admin in a Footsie top 100 company. Pathetic.

    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11495
    Fretwired said:
    The EU is not a nightclub, or a golf club or a marriage. The British people said leave. The British government tells the EU we're leaving and we leave. It's not rocket science.

    The EU want money to cover costs already committed - fair enough, and guarantees for EU nationals in the UK (we can agree a quid quo pro for UK nationals in the EU) and that's about it. We would need a transition period to enlarge customs systems (they are already in place as we export around the world from UK ports).

    That's it.

    Simplistic, but that's it. 


    Anything worded simple sounds simple. This isn't. But I think that we covered all of that two years ago and so I shall be happy to defer to you :)

    Docked a point though for inducing images of Theresa May playing footsie to appear in my mind. Bad Fret, no pudding for you. 
    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • TheBigDipperTheBigDipper Frets: 937
    Amazing how we're still arguing about what the referendum question meant and what sort of "leave" it means. Just shows you what a shoddy piece of work Cameron and his team did on framing the whole thing - and just because it was the best thing he could think of to try and sort out dissidents within his own party and the threat of losing large chunks of their vote to UKIP. 

    Then we've got the even shoddier work of the current government trying to balance two warring factions within their own party at our expense. 

    And all because the oligarchs who own most of our media didn't want the EU shining the spotlight of accountability onto their financial arrangements and decided the easiest way to achieve that was to persuade us to leave the EU before EU legislation came into effect that would scupper things for them. Nothing else explains the attitude of the "leave" media in the way they've been rabble-rousing on the front pages. 

    The EU is flawed and many people have decent reasons for leaving, or for reform, but the tone and quality of the discussion has always been pitiful and full of lies - without any accountability it seems...  


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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16993
    Amazing how we're still arguing about what the referendum question meant and what sort of "leave" it means. Just shows you what a shoddy piece of work Cameron and his team did on framing the whole thing - and just because it was the best thing he could think of to try and sort out dissidents within his own party and the threat of losing large chunks of their vote to UKIP. 


    Agree. I'm pretty sure Cameron thought he'd win by a country mile. Cost him his premiership and dumped us into the shite - the man had no backbone. He was scared of UKIP. He and Blair should be locked in the Tower of London by the Queen .. ;-)
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11495
    Amazing how we're still arguing about what the referendum question meant and what sort of "leave" it means. Just shows you what a shoddy piece of work Cameron and his team did on framing the whole thing - and just because it was the best thing he could think of to try and sort out dissidents within his own party and the threat of losing large chunks of their vote to UKIP. 

    Then we've got the even shoddier work of the current government trying to balance two warring factions within their own party at our expense. 

    And all because the oligarchs who own most of our media didn't want the EU shining the spotlight of accountability onto their financial arrangements and decided the easiest way to achieve that was to persuade us to leave the EU before EU legislation came into effect that would scupper things for them. Nothing else explains the attitude of the "leave" media in the way they've been rabble-rousing on the front pages. 

    The EU is flawed and many people have decent reasons for leaving, or for reform, but the tone and quality of the discussion has always been pitiful and full of lies - without any accountability it seems...  


    It's easy to argue about Leave because of the variables but there is also the other side that has been discarded. What did voting Remain actually mean? With such a simple question, it covers a wide range. I voted Remain because I didn't want to remove all the benefits of being in the EU and I was concerned that an emboldened UKIP/harder right faction would cause a lot of problems politically in the future (and I feel quite justified on that front). My vote to Remain was not a ringing endorsement of the EU and the way it does things but with it being such a simple open-ended question then plenty on the Leave side could take it as that.

    The Leave media are hilarious. Take this morning's Mail and Express front pages. 

    Don't vilify some members of the older generation!

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dd1HhRAU8AAQjCn.jpg

    Quick, vilify some members of the older generation!

    https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/OERCv_gqObASbV3Z1yzbmA/https/d2kmm3vx031a1h.cloudfront.net/6GhHu0bRiSNRu0SxDxkA_mail.jpg


    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • TheBigDipperTheBigDipper Frets: 937
    edited May 23
    <snip myself>

    It's easy to argue about Leave because of the variables but there is also the other side that has been discarded. What did voting Remain actually mean? With such a simple question, it covers a wide range. I voted Remain because I didn't want to remove all the benefits of being in the EU and I was concerned that an emboldened UKIP/harder right faction would cause a lot of problems politically in the future (and I feel quite justified on that front). My vote to Remain was not a ringing endorsement of the EU and the way it does things but with it being such a simple open-ended question then plenty on the Leave side could take it as that.

    The Leave media are hilarious. Take this morning's Mail and Express front pages. 

    Don't vilify some members of the older generation!

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dd1HhRAU8AAQjCn.jpg

    Quick, vilify some members of the older generation!

    https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/OERCv_gqObASbV3Z1yzbmA/https/d2kmm3vx031a1h.cloudfront.net/6GhHu0bRiSNRu0SxDxkA_mail.jpg


    Funny, I seem to remember The Daily Mail and Jacob Rees-Mogg both supporting the HoL as an important brake against the excesses of the government of the day when it (the HoL) was lined up with them instead of against them. 

    I also voted Remain. Not because the EU is perfect, but because the alternative is worse, and less accountable (despite the propaganda we're fed). 
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 32861
    Amazing how we're still arguing about what the referendum question meant and what sort of "leave" it means. Just shows you what a shoddy piece of work Cameron and his team did on framing the whole thing - and just because it was the best thing he could think of to try and sort out dissidents within his own party and the threat of losing large chunks of their vote to UKIP. 

    Then we've got the even shoddier work of the current government trying to balance two warring factions within their own party at our expense. 

    And all because the oligarchs who own most of our media didn't want the EU shining the spotlight of accountability onto their financial arrangements and decided the easiest way to achieve that was to persuade us to leave the EU before EU legislation came into effect that would scupper things for them. Nothing else explains the attitude of the "leave" media in the way they've been rabble-rousing on the front pages. 

    The EU is flawed and many people have decent reasons for leaving, or for reform, but the tone and quality of the discussion has always been pitiful and full of lies - without any accountability it seems... 
    I completely agree with this. I did vote Remain, but like probably most others who did I have some serious reservations about the EU, and now that we are going to leave I want to make the best of that, not to reverse it. I did think it could, and probably should, have been stopped up to the point that Parliament voted to declare Article 50, but that's done and dusted now.

    The blame lies with Cameron - for the utterly lazy and almost flippant way the referendum was called and implemented, without a turnout or majority threshold, with a simple question but no explanation of what it really meant, by making it officially non-binding but insisting that it would be acted on, and by arrogantly assuming he would win. And that's even ignoring the total shower of shit that was the Remain campaign.

    What we really need is to start the whole negotiation again - given that virtually nothing has been achieved yet it would barely make a difference - with a proper cross-party team to work out what is best for the country. If that means delaying leaving slightly - *not* as a cover for not implementing it - then it would be better than stumbling blindly into a no-deal situation by default, which is what's going to happen otherwise.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11495
    ICBM said:

    The blame lies with Cameron - for the utterly lazy and almost flippant way the referendum was called and implemented, without a turnout or majority threshold, with a simple question but no explanation of what it really meant, by making it officially non-binding but insisting that it would be acted on, and by arrogantly assuming he would win. And that's even ignoring the total shower of shit that was the Remain campaign.


    Quite right. If it had been carried out in Zimbabwe or Russia, it would have looked laughable. That it was carried out here and that the victors have then gone on to attack judges and the Lords simply continues the shitty feeling. 
    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16993
    Cameron should take a lot of blame but so should the EU - Junker admits they helped the leave camp via their treatment of Cameron and he wishes the EU had acted differently. Cameron went to the EU to get some concessions regarding free movement via an annual cap - the EU laughed at him and said no (although France now admits it wants a cap). Had Cameron got a concession on free movement I think he could have avoided a referendum or if he'd had one he could have won.

    However, he boasted he'd get a better deal for the UK but he didn't. He ran a poor campaign based on FUD, which given the Leave campaign was also poor took some beating.

    However, the UK's influence within the EU was waning and our position at the top table over. All the key decisions are taken by the Euro group. A member country cannot be a member of the main economic group unless it is part of the Euro Zone. So we'd pay top dollar for less and less say as to how things are run.

    Perhaps Cameron should have reworded his question to 'Do you want to remain in the EU or leave the EU and join EFTA. He should at least have stipulated a winning margin for leave before acting - 52% to 48% is too close.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16993
    IDS and the Tories get roasted on QT ...



    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11495
    There are plenty of groups who deserve their arses kicked. Cameron and the EU you've covered. Corbyn for his fencesitting. Vote Leave for the lies spun out and for grabbing some Leave.EU support whilst weakly denouncing them. Leave.EU for close to everything. Newspapers post-referendum. The whole saga from start to current position has been most unedifying. 

    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • jpfampsjpfamps Frets: 1420
    edited May 23
    Fretwired said:
    IDS and the Tories get roasted on QT ...




    IDS is living proof of equal opportunites in the Conservative party; it doesn't matter how stupid you are you can still become a government minister.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 32861
    jpfamps said:

    IDS is living proof of equal opportunites in the Conservative party; it doesn't matter how stupid you are you can still have a go at being leader of the party.
    Edited for accuracy.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16993
    Not sure what to make of this .... :-)

    The parliament has its own “Harry Potter floor”, floor 5 ½. All new visitors get lost trying to find it, but importantly floor 5 ½ is home to Guy Verhofstadt, the parliament’s most senior Brexit official.

    Guy Verhofstadt is well known for being a committed Anglophile with a love of Monty Python and Aston Martins. And because of his British affections, on floor 5 ½, Guy has a large Union Jack Smeg fridge proudly on display in his office.

    Want more?

    Carry On Brussels: Inside the EU will air tonight at 10pm on Channel 4.


    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11495
    Will Govey the house elf be making an appearance? 


    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16993
    Will Govey the house elf be making an appearance? 


    :-)

    Not sure .. I can't wait for the Sun to start calling Verhofstadt Voldemort ...
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 32861
    Fretwired said:

    Not sure .. I can't wait for the Sun to start calling Verhofstadt Voldemort ...
    That would probably overestimate the literacy of their readers. They're more likely to be interested in Emma Watson's tits.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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