Minimum wattage for a gigging amp

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daveyhdaveyh Frets: 681
In your experience what is the minimum wattage for a gigging amp to compete with a loud drummer, not using a PA?

Last time I did this I was using a 100watt Marshall but that's probably overkill these days.
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357
    5 :)


    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • monquixotemonquixote Frets: 17485
    tFB Trader
    It's not a meaningful question. 

    The HT20 I used to have could not keep up with a loud drummer in a rehearsal room.

    The Supersonic22 could keep up with a drummer and play smaller gigs though the clean could break up a little.

    The H&K Puretone is 25 Watts and is so shit kickingly loud the last gig I did with it we were playing out of our amps and the other guitarist was using a 100 Watt stack with a 4x12 and was asking me to turn down. 
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71963
    For me and the sounds I normally like - big open full-range clean and crunch tones with effects - about 30W with very efficient speakers (eg AC30) or better, 50W through a couple of 12s. A little more isn't a bad thing.

    For a cranked-small-amp midrange overdriven tone with no cleans or bandwidth-hungry effects needed, 15W will do it even through one 12, if it's a good one.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • daveyhdaveyh Frets: 681
    ICBM said:
    For a cranked-small-amp midrange overdriven tone with no cleans or bandwidth-hungry effects needed, 15W will do it even through one 12, if it's a good one.
    Think stuff like Hanoi Rocks, Backyard Babies, Ramones, Pistols. No real clean required, effects possibly a bit of delay and tremolo.

    I have a Blackheart 15w thing (use with a Fulldrive II) that I love to bits and has coped in rehearsal situations no problem through a Laney 2x12. That has Celestion Seventy/80s, not a well thought of speaker but I've found pretty good for that 80s mid sound.
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  • daveyhdaveyh Frets: 681
    Danny1969 said:
    5 :)


    Haha, my HT5 has sorta been permanently acquired by my son :)
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  • daveyhdaveyh Frets: 681
    It's not a meaningful question. 

    Well, it would be if I clarified a little. I'm not interested in clean headroom, simply volume to be heard over a drummer.
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  • HAL9000HAL9000 Frets: 9552
    As Monquixote implied, wattage is not overly meaningful on its own. Speaker size and efficiency also plays a large part. Also (because of the way output is measured) valve amps are often noticeably louder than a similar wattage SS amp. At a guess I'd say that 40w or 50w should probably be enough to make the drummer cry.
    I play guitar because I enjoy it rather than because I’m any good at it
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71963
    daveyh said:

    Think stuff like Hanoi Rocks, Backyard Babies, Ramones, Pistols. No real clean required, effects possibly a bit of delay and tremolo.



    I have a Blackheart 15w thing (use with a Fulldrive II) that I love to bits and has coped in rehearsal situations no problem through a Laney 2x12. That has Celestion Seventy/80s, not a well thought of speaker but I've found pretty good for that 80s mid sound.
    Try it. At the very least it will be close. The issue will be the type of tone you can get rather than the outright volume - it might struggle a bit on chunky power chord stuff or with a lot of delay, even if it would be loud enough for bluesy soloing.

    70/80s aren't the most efficient speakers though - you'd get the equivalent of almost double the amp power with something like V30s.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • daveyhdaveyh Frets: 681

    ICBM said:
    daveyh said:

    Think stuff like Hanoi Rocks, Backyard Babies, Ramones, Pistols. No real clean required, effects possibly a bit of delay and tremolo.



    I have a Blackheart 15w thing (use with a Fulldrive II) that I love to bits and has coped in rehearsal situations no problem through a Laney 2x12. That has Celestion Seventy/80s, not a well thought of speaker but I've found pretty good for that 80s mid sound.
    Try it. At the very least it will be close. The issue will be the type of tone you can get rather than the outright volume - it might struggle a bit on chunky power chord stuff or with a lot of delay, even if it would be loud enough for bluesy soloing.

    70/80s aren't the most efficient speakers though - you'd get the equivalent of almost double the amp power with something like V30s.

    Know from experience that V30s are pretty much my fave speaker but atm havn't needed the change. Admittedly the Laney hasn't previously needed particularly high volume so not noticed. Will give it a shot though.
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  • Si_Si_ Frets: 384
    I've gigged a Dark Terror through a Marshall 1936 cab and had room to spare (gain and volume on about 2/3rds)
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  • daveyhdaveyh Frets: 681
    Si_ said:
    I've gigged a Dark Terror through a Marshall 1936 cab and had room to spare (gain and volume on about 2/3rds)
    Sweet, that's equivalent to my Blackheart. cheers
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  • Si_Si_ Frets: 384
    edited March 2014
    That was un-mic'd and coped with a loud drummer no problem.

    you won't get great cleans at gig volume, but can get nice breakup (or more and roll the volume on the guitar back).
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  • daveyhdaveyh Frets: 681
    edited March 2014
    Cleans aren't an issue with this gig tbh, all I need is 'less distorted' so nice breakup sounds pretty good
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  • ecc83ecc83 Frets: 1591
    "The H&K Puretone is 25 Watts and is so shit kickingly loud..... " That statement and the other reference to the HT-20 shows very starkly why, as someone else said, this is a bit of a non-question. 
    The Puretone is an EL34 amp and I would guess fixed biased. It is also very expensive. I found the head at nearly£1000! Given the price I would expect it to be "conservatively" rated and my bet is it could put out 50W without any sweat at all. The combo version also drives a V30 so, as IC intimates, that is a recipe for mayhem!

    Now, I am not leaping to the defence of the HT-20 here, it needs none. But it IS an essentially cathode biased amp and does put out just about 20watts. It is also "voiced" on the dark, non aggressive side. The speaker in the combo is also NOT a V30 or as ICBM would say "you can 'king say THAT again!". 

    You could also I think get 3 20s for one of those H&Ks?

    Dave. 
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71963
    Exactly. The dynamic response and tone of the amp makes a big difference.

    Even with exactly the same type of power amp design, speaker sensitivity is *more* important than amp power. An increase of 3dB in speaker sensitivity is equivalent to doubling the amp power. Adding more speakers increases the effective sensitivity too - depending on the cabinet design, you can get about an extra 1-2dB by doubling the number of speakers.

    So a 15W amp going through a 4x12" with 100dB speakers could actually be *louder* than a 50W amp going through a single 97dB speaker.

    Speaker voicing makes a huge difference too - V30s are partly so loud because they're extremely midrangy, and they have a 'spike' right at the most effective frequency to ensure they'll be heard.

    The amp power makes more difference to the tone you can get than the outright volume, unless you're determined to just crank everything right up… which is why some of us still like 100W amps, *not* because we play at insane volumes.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • impmannimpmann Frets: 12649
    I gig a Laney Lionheart 20w head into a 2x12 cab with a loud drummer and a
    loud 2nd guitarist (and bass player). Similar sort of material - maybe more classic punk and new wave plus some Ska. Currently not mic'd up

    More than loud enough for pubs. I use a booster pedal for solos, an OD pedal for 'more gas' and that's it.

    Great tone, loud as heck and portable. Job done
    Never Ever Bloody Anything Ever.

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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    As others have said, it isn't really down to just wattage.

    With a good master volume, if that is the sort of amp you like, then you have a lot of freedom.
    I run my CAA 50 watter at bedroom volume up to rip your head off volume.

    I've gigged with 15w Blues Juniors with the right sort of music- if the drummer isn't too loud etc.
    Otherwise circa 30w+ seems to work for me.
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  • My Excelsior is certainly loud enough for my gigs.
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  • impmann;198679" said:
    I gig a Laney Lionheart 20w head into a 2x12 cab with a loud drummer and a
    loud 2nd guitarist (and bass player). Similar sort of material - maybe more classic punk and new wave plus some Ska. Currently not mic'd up

    More than loud enough for pubs. I use a booster pedal for solos, an OD pedal for 'more gas' and that's it.

    Great tone, loud as heck and portable. Job done
    Not tried the 20 but the 50 watter, with 5 el34s (which is probably close to class a) is a stunning sounding thing. Best clean tone I've ever heard.
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  • dilbertdilbert Frets: 202
    Speaker efficiency notwithstanding, I would have said 30w for a 1x12" combo. My Classic 30 did the job for ages and my Laney LC30II is holding up well. Of course I am not talking about the O2 or Wembley but for the 'Dog & Gun', they are okay especially with an extension cab. 

    dilbert
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