The migrant crisis

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The news this morning has the story of Italy refusing to allow a rescue ship containing 629 migrants rescued from the sea, to dock.

They say they've taken in enough already, and I can kind of see their point.  Whilst it goes without saying that nobody can refuse to help drowning people, what do you do when they keep throwing themselves into the sea?  Whatever they decide to do with this particular group, what are they going to do with the next one? ... and the one after that, and the next 1000 after that?

If we (Europe) make it easier for migrants, they will flood in by the million.  The opposite end of the scale is to enforce a zero-tolerance policy; let them all drown, refuse rescue ships and any that are picked up get forcibly returned to their own countries - IF you have any way to discover where they are from.

There has to be some unified policy to address the issue.  We can't continue with this ad-hoc reactive chaos.  Between "let them all in" and "let them all drown" is the current point of "try to discourage the next wave from coming by making it difficult for the existing one".

What's wrong with letting them all in anyway?  Isn't that closer to the "great big melting pot" sang about in the sixties and Lennon's abolition of borders in "Imagine" - or - is it really the case that we don't want that and want to erect barriers to stop people who don't talk or look like us from coming in and feeding at our trough?
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  • LegionreturnsLegionreturns Frets: 4537
    1 - Stop bombing the shit out of / selling arms to tin pot dictators of their country

    2 - Recognise that dragging your arse half way across the world, through grave danger, losing family members and everything you own along the way is a pretty drastic choice and not "easy" so there must be a reason for it. (See point 1)

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 31628
    1 - Stop bombing the shit out of / selling arms to tin pot dictators of their country

    2 - Recognise that dragging your arse half way across the world, through grave danger, losing family members and everything you own along the way is a pretty drastic choice and not "easy" so there must be a reason for it. (See point 1)
    One wisdom is not enough for that...

    The vast majority of refugees are coming from countries wrecked by Western interference. While we continue this idiotic policy, we have no right to turn the people who have suffered as a result of it away.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • darthed1981darthed1981 Frets: 1879
    ICBM said:
    The vast majority of refugees are coming from countries wrecked by Western interference. While we continue this idiotic policy, we have no right to turn the people who have suffered as a result of it away.
    Word.
    Going out in a pot noodle fuelled Mary Spender bender....
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  • FuengiFuengi Frets: 562
    There are real problems in the way the boats are being received by NGO's. The smugglers only put enough fuel in to get them off shore, knowing (often by pre arrangements) that the NGOs will intercept and bring the migrants to Europe.

    Lampadussa is usually the target, it's a small Italian island off the coast of Libya which is processing thousands of migrants a week. And yes, some are from countries which have been affected by western policy but a lot are not. Eritrea for example seems a very popular starting point, and the overhlwhelming majority of migrants are young men. 

    It's really a dreadful problem which is tearing Europe apart. I'd like to see big investment in Africa to develop some significant modern cities across the continent. 

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  • darthed1981darthed1981 Frets: 1879
    As obtuse as it seems, perhaps the solution should actually be western colonies on the north coast of Africa?

    Heavily defended you could land the migrants there to care for them while the situation is explained and give them their options.
    Going out in a pot noodle fuelled Mary Spender bender....
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  • LegionreturnsLegionreturns Frets: 4537
    Fuengi said:
    There are real problems in the way the boats are being received by NGO's. The smugglers only put enough fuel in to get them off shore, knowing (often by pre arrangements) that the NGOs will intercept and bring the migrants to Europe.

    Lampadussa is usually the target, it's a small Italian island off the coast of Libya which is processing thousands of migrants a week. And yes, some are from countries which have been affected by western policy but a lot are not. Eritrea for example seems a very popular starting point, and the overhlwhelming majority of migrants are young men. 

    It's really a dreadful problem which is tearing Europe apart. I'd like to see big investment in Africa to develop some significant modern cities across the continent. 

    I recently sat and played cards with a man called Mani, who arrived from Eritrea a year or so back. He decided to leave after his brother was killed in the street. He packed a bag for him, his wife and their daughter and left the home they'd lived in together for years, which represented all of their savings. 

    3 months later he made it to England... his wife and child died during the long journey.

    The reason young men are arriving alone is often heartbreaking. 

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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2243
    As obtuse as it seems, perhaps the solution should actually be western colonies on the north coast of Africa?

    Heavily defended you could land the migrants there to care for them while the situation is explained and give them their options.

    Spain already have some.
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  • FuengiFuengi Frets: 562
    Fuengi said:
    There are real problems in the way the boats are being received by NGO's. The smugglers only put enough fuel in to get them off shore, knowing (often by pre arrangements) that the NGOs will intercept and bring the migrants to Europe.

    Lampadussa is usually the target, it's a small Italian island off the coast of Libya which is processing thousands of migrants a week. And yes, some are from countries which have been affected by western policy but a lot are not. Eritrea for example seems a very popular starting point, and the overhlwhelming majority of migrants are young men. 

    It's really a dreadful problem which is tearing Europe apart. I'd like to see big investment in Africa to develop some significant modern cities across the continent. 

    I recently sat and played cards with a man called Mani, who arrived from Eritrea a year or so back. He decided to leave after his brother was killed in the street. He packed a bag for him, his wife and their daughter and left the home they'd lived in together for years, which represented all of their savings. 

    3 months later he made it to England... his wife and child died during the long journey.

    The reason young men are arriving alone is often heartbreaking. 
    Such an awful tale, sadly all too common.

    This will be cold comfort to Mani but Eritreans fleeing voilence would be far better heading to Kenya, Uganda or Mozambique for safety. They really are being manipulated by the 'Migrant Trade' in being sold on Europe as a destination and the NGO's bear quite a lot of responsibility for this.     
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  • fandangofandango Frets: 1029
    Assad is doing a good enough job of wrecking Syria without western interference. Many north African countries are riven by internal divisions that have nothing to do with the west. But agree that the west's handling of these problems aren't solving them.

    Let's get to the nub. There's a certain group of religious folk who's remit is to conquer the world.  We know who they are, and it's not the Buddhists, the Amish or the Quakers. Internal violence and civil strife is only one excuse for them to leave their homeland and spread out into other countries. They are migrating whether there are bombs or not, since we are seeing migrants also coming from countries that aren't experiencing civil war.
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  • fandangofandango Frets: 1029


    I recently sat and played cards with a man called Mani, who arrived from Eritrea a year or so back. He decided to leave after his brother was killed in the street. He packed a bag for him, his wife and their daughter and left the home they'd lived in together for years, which represented all of their savings. 

    3 months later he made it to England... his wife and child died during the long journey.

    The reason young men are arriving alone is often heartbreaking. 
    These families are the future of their country. Or should be the future, if they got a grip and tried to change their nation for the better, instead of jacking it in and allowing the violence to have the upper hand. By leaving they're condemning their own nation.

    Britain owes no more responsibility towards Eritrea as any other nation. With the possible exception of Italy, because it was Mussolini who conquered the place on behalf of Italy to prove his own empire building credentials.

    But what should Britain do now Mani is here? By keeping him here in Blighty, we've denied Eritrea a determined young man. Maybe we should help instil in him a national pride (of Eritrea) and equip him to deal with the problems of his own country, so that one day he could go back and make a difference to end the violence?
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  • LegionreturnsLegionreturns Frets: 4537
    fandango said:


    I recently sat and played cards with a man called Mani, who arrived from Eritrea a year or so back. He decided to leave after his brother was killed in the street. He packed a bag for him, his wife and their daughter and left the home they'd lived in together for years, which represented all of their savings. 

    3 months later he made it to England... his wife and child died during the long journey.

    The reason young men are arriving alone is often heartbreaking. 
    These families are the future of their country. Or should be the future, if they got a grip and tried to change their nation for the better, instead of jacking it in and allowing the violence to have the upper hand. By leaving they're condemning their own nation.

    Britain owes no more responsibility towards Eritrea as any other nation. With the possible exception of Italy, because it was Mussolini who conquered the place on behalf of Italy to prove his own empire building credentials.

    But what should Britain do now Mani is here? By keeping him here in Blighty, we've denied Eritrea a determined young man. Maybe we should help instil in him a national pride (of Eritrea) and equip him to deal with the problems of his own country, so that one day he could go back and make a difference to end the violence?
    So if the same thing happened here, you'd stay, putting your family at risk of violence, rape and torture? 

    Brave sentiments. I'll believe it when I see it. 

    For me, and Mani, trying to keep my family safe will always be the priority. Especially against a well armed and organised force, armed with only wits and a few sticks. The decision he took was not cowardice, it was incredibly brave. 

    FYI he's not allowed to work until his asylum is granted. He gets £30 a week on a payment card, and spends his days at an asylum seeker centre translating for others and helping out. 

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  • darthed1981darthed1981 Frets: 1879
    fandango said:


    I recently sat and played cards with a man called Mani, who arrived from Eritrea a year or so back. He decided to leave after his brother was killed in the street. He packed a bag for him, his wife and their daughter and left the home they'd lived in together for years, which represented all of their savings. 

    3 months later he made it to England... his wife and child died during the long journey.

    The reason young men are arriving alone is often heartbreaking. 
    These families are the future of their country. Or should be the future, if they got a grip and tried to change their nation for the better, instead of jacking it in and allowing the violence to have the upper hand. By leaving they're condemning their own nation.

    Britain owes no more responsibility towards Eritrea as any other nation. With the possible exception of Italy, because it was Mussolini who conquered the place on behalf of Italy to prove his own empire building credentials.

    But what should Britain do now Mani is here? By keeping him here in Blighty, we've denied Eritrea a determined young man. Maybe we should help instil in him a national pride (of Eritrea) and equip him to deal with the problems of his own country, so that one day he could go back and make a difference to end the violence?
    So if the same thing happened here, you'd stay, putting your family at risk of violence, rape and torture? 

    Brave sentiments. I'll believe it when I see it. 

    For me, and Mani, trying to keep my family safe will always be the priority. Especially against a well armed and organised force, armed with only wits and a few sticks. The decision he took was not cowardice, it was incredibly brave. 

    FYI he's not allowed to work until his asylum is granted. He gets £30 a week on a payment card, and spends his days at an asylum seeker centre translating for others and helping out. 
    I agree with @Legionreturns here, as a family man I'd be obliged to run. 

    Back when I was single then if a bunch of bastards took over Britain, then maybe I'd be obliged to fight.

    However, fighting implies you are armed.  Arming rebels is a bit of a dubious benefit for the west, ultimately the rebels won in Libya and now it is a fragmented country partly controlled by ISIS!
    Going out in a pot noodle fuelled Mary Spender bender....
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16299
    1 - Stop bombing the shit out of / selling arms to tin pot dictators of their country

    2 - Recognise that dragging your arse half way across the world, through grave danger, losing family members and everything you own along the way is a pretty drastic choice and not "easy" so there must be a reason for it. (See point 1)
    Except that a high number aren't from the Middle East at all but are just economic migrants looking for a better life. Most of the people in the boat on the TV were men.

    Italy and the EU are behaving badly over this. Our basic humanity should mean people are not left to drown. They should be taken to land, processed and those who are from safe countries should be returned.

    The west needs a strategy to help the third world develop and become prosperous so people don't need to travel half way round the world in search of a better life. The EU's tariffs and and bans on produce from Africa/Asia should be scrapped. It just causes more poverty. If people could trade freely they'd make some money, develop their economies and get out of the poverty trap.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • GarthyGarthy Frets: 1695
    Fuengi said:
    There are real problems in the way the boats are being received by NGO's. The smugglers only put enough fuel in to get them off shore, knowing (often by pre arrangements) that the NGOs will intercept and bring the migrants to Europe.

    Lampadussa is usually the target, it's a small Italian island off the coast of Libya which is processing thousands of migrants a week. And yes, some are from countries which have been affected by western policy but a lot are not. Eritrea for example seems a very popular starting point, and the overhlwhelming majority of migrants are young men. 

    It's really a dreadful problem which is tearing Europe apart. I'd like to see big investment in Africa to develop some significant modern cities across the continent. 

    I recently sat and played cards with a man called Mani, who arrived from Eritrea a year or so back. He decided to leave after his brother was killed in the street. He packed a bag for him, his wife and their daughter and left the home they'd lived in together for years, which represented all of their savings. 

    3 months later he made it to England... his wife and child died during the long journey.

    The reason young men are arriving alone is often heartbreaking. 
    Mani was hardly going to tell you that he was never married in the first place though was he.
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  • LegionreturnsLegionreturns Frets: 4537
    Garthy said:
    Fuengi said:
    There are real problems in the way the boats are being received by NGO's. The smugglers only put enough fuel in to get them off shore, knowing (often by pre arrangements) that the NGOs will intercept and bring the migrants to Europe.

    Lampadussa is usually the target, it's a small Italian island off the coast of Libya which is processing thousands of migrants a week. And yes, some are from countries which have been affected by western policy but a lot are not. Eritrea for example seems a very popular starting point, and the overhlwhelming majority of migrants are young men. 

    It's really a dreadful problem which is tearing Europe apart. I'd like to see big investment in Africa to develop some significant modern cities across the continent. 

    I recently sat and played cards with a man called Mani, who arrived from Eritrea a year or so back. He decided to leave after his brother was killed in the street. He packed a bag for him, his wife and their daughter and left the home they'd lived in together for years, which represented all of their savings. 

    3 months later he made it to England... his wife and child died during the long journey.

    The reason young men are arriving alone is often heartbreaking. 
    Mani was hardly going to tell you that he was never married in the first place though was he.
    No, but the photos of his (now dead) family, tears and genuine distress as he told me his story, and the description of his qualified job in an office and the home they made together were either true, or he's the best actor I've ever met, even in a foreign language.

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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 3626
    Fretwired said:
    1 - Stop bombing the shit out of / selling arms to tin pot dictators of their country

    2 - Recognise that dragging your arse half way across the world, through grave danger, losing family members and everything you own along the way is a pretty drastic choice and not "easy" so there must be a reason for it. (See point 1)
    Except that a high number aren't from the Middle East at all but are just economic migrants looking for a better life. Most of the people in the boat on the TV were men.

    Italy and the EU are behaving badly over this. Our basic humanity should mean people are not left to drown. They should be taken to land, processed and those who are from safe countries should be returned.

    The west needs a strategy to help the third world develop and become prosperous so people don't need to travel half way round the world in search of a better life. The EU's tariffs and and bans on produce from Africa/Asia should be scrapped. It just causes more poverty. If people could trade freely they'd make some money, develop their economies and get out of the poverty trap.

    On the bit I've bolded, the problem is that you don't know where they are from.  If they even have a passport it will get chucked in the sea.  How do you send them back when you don't know where to send them to?  They know that they can't be sent back if they have no papers and refuse to say where they are from.

    The only option would be to dump them all in Libya, but the majority aren't from Libya, and it would be a bit harsh on anyone (with the possible exception of Piers Morgan) to dump them on the Libyan coast.

    You are right about the EU tariffs.  The way we treat these countries in "trade" is appalling.  Sorting that out would help, but that would take years to bear fruit.

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  • @Legionreturns. ;

    I don't know you from Adam, and don't know what you do for a living.

    What I do know is that I tip my hat to your advocacy on behalf of these human beings, I can't begin to imagine the terrors they have endured.

    Keep doing what you're doing, you have my admiration and respect. 







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  • fandangofandango Frets: 1029
    edited June 11
    fandango said:


    I recently sat and played cards with a man called Mani, who arrived from Eritrea a year or so back. He decided to leave after his brother was killed in the street. He packed a bag for him, his wife and their daughter and left the home they'd lived in together for years, which represented all of their savings. 

    3 months later he made it to England... his wife and child died during the long journey.

    The reason young men are arriving alone is often heartbreaking. 
    These families are the future of their country. Or should be the future, if they got a grip and tried to change their nation for the better, instead of jacking it in and allowing the violence to have the upper hand. By leaving they're condemning their own nation.

    Britain owes no more responsibility towards Eritrea as any other nation. With the possible exception of Italy, because it was Mussolini who conquered the place on behalf of Italy to prove his own empire building credentials.

    But what should Britain do now Mani is here? By keeping him here in Blighty, we've denied Eritrea a determined young man. Maybe we should help instil in him a national pride (of Eritrea) and equip him to deal with the problems of his own country, so that one day he could go back and make a difference to end the violence?
    So if the same thing happened here, you'd stay, putting your family at risk of violence, rape and torture? 

    Brave sentiments. I'll believe it when I see it. 

    For me, and Mani, trying to keep my family safe will always be the priority. Especially against a well armed and organised force, armed with only wits and a few sticks. The decision he took was not cowardice, it was incredibly brave. 

    FYI he's not allowed to work until his asylum is granted. He gets £30 a week on a payment card, and spends his days at an asylum seeker centre translating for others and helping out. 
    The answer to all of life's problems is not to move to a different country. Britain (notably London, Rotherham, Rochdale, etc) isn't exactly safe for certain people either, but we're not witnessing a mass exodus from the country. Surely there are safe parts of Eritrea? Why didn't he move to another village/ town/ city?

    Cowardice - of course it's cowardice. He ran away, didn't he? Brave (and his moral duty) would have been to stay to help sort his own country's problems.

    Lastly, I was not advocating he took up arms to join the violence. I was and still am suggesting his responsibility was to have remained and encouraged his fellow people NOT to fight, but unite in a common cause to make his country better. Now he's here, he seems likely he's not ever going to do that. So that's one less person who could have made a positive difference in Eritrea. That's a real shame.

    By paying him and others when they get here (Britain), only encourages more to make the move. That means Eritrea is emptied of it's younger generation as they chase an easier live over here (at our expense). As an individual, I have no beef with Mani per se, but it's the principle. He's not alone. And it's not just Eritrea. Multiply the numbers and it has become a social and financial burden upon the UK. Burdens that the UK clearly isn't coping with. Yet we invite ever more with this largesse. Sorry, but it's got to stop.

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  • guitarfishbayguitarfishbay Frets: 6907
    You get one life.

    Easy to call someone a coward from comfort.
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  • guitarfishbayguitarfishbay Frets: 6907
    edited June 11
  • darthed1981darthed1981 Frets: 1879
    fandango said:
    By paying him and others when they get here (Britain), only encourages more to make the move. That means Eritrea is emptied of it's younger generation as they chase an easier live over here (at our expense). As an individual, I have no beef with Mani per se, but it's the principle. He's not alone. And it's not just Eritrea. Multiply the numbers and it has become a social and financial burden upon the UK. Burdens that the UK clearly isn't coping with. Yet we invite ever more with this largesse. Sorry, but it's got to stop.


    This is a pretty textbook example of this aspect of the debate and I find it quite interesting. So not replying to my friend here directly but to analyse it a bit...

    The UK is coping badly at the moment because the economy is still too weak (with a weak forecast) to generate the tax revenue to supply services at the publicly expected level without borrowing or increasing the level of taxation, both of which our current government is committed to try to avoid doing, both for practical and ideological reasons.  In fact they are pushing to reduce levels of taxation, especially on the wealthy who pay a lot of tax.

    Migration from outside the EU makes up a tiny percentage of migration figures, but they do come here less equipped to thrive economically, with poor English skills and coming from countries where technology is rare.  To succeed you need hard work and education, they maybe have just one of these.  Some might be geniuses, but without education, you never know.

    So there is a definite issue, both humanitarian and moral (we are often partly or wholly responsible for these conflicts, we depend on conflict minerals and don't care who we buy them from, we abet the cruel leaders who side with us and buy or weapons) economic (the west is facing a weakening economy, a weak POTUS, Brexit, a resurgent Russia, an expansionist China, all while still suffering from the 2008 crash) and social (the populations of western countries are insular, scared and traditionalist, we cant even make original movies any more, and we are dealing with large numbers of people from incredibly different and by our standards backward cultures).

    So what do we actually do?  

    1.  What we currently do, fish them out of the water, provide humanitarian aid and then either process them through normal immigration, provide them the means to return, or sometimes accept them en masse as it is ultimately cheaper than providing resources for long-term humanitarian care?

    2. Blow the ships out of the water, let the survivors drown, decrease the surplus population (bearing in mind this would have caused outcry if we had done it in the 19th century)?  I'd class just plain letting them drown as a less aggressive version of this.

    3.  Accept them all without question and provide support and education so they can in the medium term become economically viable members of our societies?


    Perhaps you can take other steps I strongly expect we are already doing: -

    1. Target the people trafficking rings and gangs with intelligence, special forces and drone strikes, taking out their boats, equipment and removing their ability to operate?

    2. Running education programs in these countries about the west, and that Dick Whittington is not a true story?

    And something that i suspect we are not doing: -

    Run the world in a fairer, kinder and more humanitarian way, so people don't feel the need to flee their home countries for any kind of a better life, let alone flee to avoid watching their families tortured or murdered in the street.
    Going out in a pot noodle fuelled Mary Spender bender....
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  • munckeemunckee Frets: 1267
    There is not a clear answer to this I can see, as much as we (the first world) are creating problems by interfering we are also helping people by interfering with disease prevention clean water supplies etc.  In the first world the numbers of children families had decreased as the children were more likely to survive.  This needs to follow in the developing world as they cannot feed their expanding population.   

    Everyone just moving to the first world is unsustainable, the populations of these developing countries dwarf the numbers in the first world.  At some point the Europe and America are likely to have to close all their external borders or except a significant decrease in lifestyle here to try and feed the third world. 
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11052
    fandango said:
    These families are the future of their country. Or should be the future, if they got a grip and tried to change their nation for the better, instead of jacking it in and allowing the violence to have the upper hand. By leaving they're condemning their own nation.

    The leaders of their nation condemn the people, who flee because they feel unsafe. One wonders if you'd have accused the Jews fleeing Europe of "jacking it in" before imploring them to "get a grip".
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16299
    I'm going to sound cynical here but the boat has been rescued and those rescued have been Tweeting - there's an awful lot of black Africans who speak excellent English .. I didn't see any Arabs (that's not to say there aren't any) but if there were they would be in the minority. These people aren't from Iraq or Syria.


    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • DefaultMDefaultM Frets: 1881
    My wife had an interesting conversation with someone the other day, where she tried to explain that one group of people can't be claiming all the benefits but also taking all the jobs.

    Their response was "...well I just don't like 'em. They should stay where they are", which I thought was an excellent and well reasoned argument.

    Its a tough one, because on one hand I wouldn't want my wife and kids to be raped and killed in front of me if I stayed, but I also wouldn't want a little English guy behind his computer screen to imply I hadn't been brave if I left!
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  • Phil_aka_PipPhil_aka_Pip Frets: 8802
    Hmmmm ... a "better life, eh?" So what would happen if I got fed up with my cheap little 3-bed semi and my miniscule wage packet, and rocked up to, say, Belgravia, and set up camp on some rich git's doorstep saying "I want a better life, give me some of what you've got". I can't imagine the rich git feeling in any way obliged towards me, even if I threatened to drown myself in the Thames. I might expect him to help if here were some nasty thugs after me with baseball bats though.

    If it were easy to sort out the refugees from the economic migrants I'm sure someone would have worked out how to do it by now, but they'll keep coming for as long as the traffickers can get them to believe the streets are paved with gold and our government will give them houses, cars, and mobile phones. Maybe a massive propaganda campaign should be launched that says "It's not as good here as you might think". With a Conservative government that might be true very soon, if it isn't already.
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • DefaultMDefaultM Frets: 1881
    Why do I suddenly have an overwhelming urge to look through Nazi propaganda?
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  • LewisYL7LewisYL7 Frets: 0
    I found the following pretty interesting:

    https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-adam-buxton-podcast/id1040481893?mt=2&i=1000394978761

    Especially for those who have preconceived notions on immigrants and their motives and “cowardice”. 
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  • MattBansheeMattBanshee Frets: 587
    I have literally just landed back in the UK after a trip to Turin. All I can say is... I can fully understand why the Italians feel that way.
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  • DominicDominic Frets: 3489
    I don't think the traffickers sell the benefits of the trip and migration......they are just opportunist facilitators who make money where there is a very willing queue of customers.
    It's human nature to wander to where the grass is greener .Modern tech/ internet etc has opened a lot of eyes to what was inconceivable years ago and I genuinely think that even 20 years ago some of these people had no idea what was 100 miles down the road from their own village.Some of history 's greatest empires like Mongols and Persians were simply wandering tribes that moved across vast regions as the natural resources and opportunities presented themselves and they could better their living standard.
    Most of it is economic opportunism not especially political persecution but it's only the downmarket version of you or I moving house because the new location has better school/neighbourhood/parks,shops etc. Somewhat bolder tho' but they haven't got much to lose.
    It's almost going to explode into a population exchange ultimately.
    I don't think there is going to be any resolution -they will just keep flowing to the land of Milk and Honey or however they perceive Europe to be.It is a passive invasion but I really can't see any way to stop it.


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