The migrant crisis

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  • Winny_PoohWinny_Pooh Frets: 2762
    Hmmmm ... a "better life, eh?" So what would happen if I got fed up with my cheap little 3-bed semi and my miniscule wage packet, and rocked up to, say, Belgravia, and set up camp on some rich git's doorstep saying "I want a better life, give me some of what you've got". I can't imagine the rich git feeling in any way obliged towards me, even if I threatened to drown myself in the Thames. I might expect him to help if here were some nasty thugs after me with baseball bats though.

    If it were easy to sort out the refugees from the economic migrants I'm sure someone would have worked out how to do it by now, but they'll keep coming for as long as the traffickers can get them to believe the streets are paved with gold and our government will give them houses, cars, and mobile phones. Maybe a massive propaganda campaign should be launched that says "It's not as good here as you might think". With a Conservative government that might be true very soon, if it isn't already.
    Nuanced is not the word I'd use to describe your opinions. 
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  • GassageGassage Frets: 19994
    edited June 11
    1 - Stop bombing the shit out of / selling arms to tin pot dictators of their country

    2 - Recognise that dragging your arse half way across the world, through grave danger, losing family members and everything you own along the way is a pretty drastic choice and not "easy" so there must be a reason for it. (See point 1)
    Talking of boats, I believe you just sank @Emp_Fab 's entire fleet with one post.

    Top work.

    Donald Trump has spoken movingly about 7-Eleven. It reminded him, he said, of the way Americans came together in 1941 after Pearl Necklace.

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  • LegionreturnsLegionreturns Frets: 4533
    edited June 11
    @Legionreturns. ;;

    I don't know you from Adam, and don't know what you do for a living.

    What I do know is that I tip my hat to your advocacy on behalf of these human beings, I can't begin to imagine the terrors they have endured.

    Keep doing what you're doing, you have my admiration and respect. 
    @ourmaninthenorth  I don't in any way work in that field. (If you're genuinely interested, apart from my YBTB stuff, my day job is discussed at length here 
    http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/115808/why-i-do-what-i-do/p1 )

    I do however believe it's important to try and get all perspectives on an issue like this, and I have a very good friend who is the manager of a charity that helps Asylum Seekers and Refugees with both practical stuff, and things like applications. That's meant that I've had the opportunity to go and volunteer a few times, and got to chat to lots of "Manis". 

    Believe when I say, he wasn't expecting streets paved with gold, and was fully aware that by going anywhere in Europe he'd be opening himself up to abuse, casual racism, accusations of cowardice, AND losing all his possessions. (He had a pretty nice place out there, he showed me some of the few pictures he has left of him at home with his family). 

    That puts the decision to leave into stark reality. How bad would it have to get for one of us to up sticks, leaving everything you've ever paid for, and take a chance on the perilous journey, knowing you'd be met with either hostility or blatant opportunism at every turn? 

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  • stevebrumstevebrum Frets: 3965
    edited June 11
    Garthy said:
    Fuengi said:
    There are real problems in the way the boats are being received by NGO's. The smugglers only put enough fuel in to get them off shore, knowing (often by pre arrangements) that the NGOs will intercept and bring the migrants to Europe.

    Lampadussa is usually the target, it's a small Italian island off the coast of Libya which is processing thousands of migrants a week. And yes, some are from countries which have been affected by western policy but a lot are not. Eritrea for example seems a very popular starting point, and the overhlwhelming majority of migrants are young men. 

    It's really a dreadful problem which is tearing Europe apart. I'd like to see big investment in Africa to develop some significant modern cities across the continent. 

    I recently sat and played cards with a man called Mani, who arrived from Eritrea a year or so back. He decided to leave after his brother was killed in the street. He packed a bag for him, his wife and their daughter and left the home they'd lived in together for years, which represented all of their savings. 

    3 months later he made it to England... his wife and child died during the long journey.

    The reason young men are arriving alone is often heartbreaking. 
    Mani was hardly going to tell you that he was never married in the first place though was he.
    No, but the photos of his (now dead) family, tears and genuine distress as he told me his story, and the description of his qualified job in an office and the home they made together were either true, or he's the best actor I've ever met, even in a foreign language.
    A terrible storey if true...

    If he stayed he ‘might’ have been killed.

    However by choosing to leave his entire family are now dead. 

    Noy sure it’s worked out well well for him TBH.
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  • LegionreturnsLegionreturns Frets: 4533
    stevebrum said:
    ...
    A terrible storey if true...

    If he stayed he ‘might’ have been killed.

    However by choosing to leave his entire family are now dead. 

    Noy sure it’s worked out well well for him TBH.
    There's slightly more to it than I originally posted. A local "gang" had "claimed" his house and daughter. They had to make a quick decision, and with no meaningful authority to turn to, that was the decision they made.  

    Does he regret it? Every. Single. Day. In minute detail. 

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  • stevebrumstevebrum Frets: 3965
    edited June 11
    stevebrum said:
    ...
    A terrible storey if true...

    If he stayed he ‘might’ have been killed.

    However by choosing to leave his entire family are now dead. 

    Noy sure it’s worked out well well for him TBH.
    There's slightly more to it than I originally posted. A local "gang" had "claimed" his house and daughter. They had to make a quick decision, and with no meaningful authority to turn to, that was the decision they made.  

    Does he regret it? Every. Single. Day. In minute detail. 
    I thought there must be more to it and excuse my spelling - it’s a combination of a tiny iPhone SE and my fat fingers.

    In Mani’s shoes I’m not sure I’d carry on - without my family I’d probably go back and fight (to the death). Thankfully though, I don’t have to make that kind of decision.
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  • darthed1981darthed1981 Frets: 1879
    stevebrum said:

    In Mani’s shoes I’m not sure I’d carry on - without my family I’d probably go back and fight (to the death).
    With what?

    If the US fancies sending a marine corps division and a few dozen jets, I suspect the Eritrean army would be slaughtered in days.  That has been known not to work out well though.

    Most popular revolutions in history have ended in a slaughter, unless the army changes sides or foreign powers get involved a tip the balance or arm the rebels.  Those that succeed typically lead to decades of unrest and worse slaughter. 

    Every once in a while some well educated chaps decide to make a buck off slavery out of it and write a nice consitution saying "all men are created equal except the blacks" and become a better country... after a couple of centuries.

    Just over 70 years ago in Europe we had a brutal dictatorship sweep over the continent and murder millions, only to be defeated in great part by the forces of a moderately less vicious dictatorship that set Eastern Europe back 50 years.

    It really is great to sit back in Britain where when the Nazis came we had an Empire, technological superiority, the world's best air defense system and largest Navy, and our buddies the world's greatest superpower in the wings.  Go us, our people fought bravely and beat back the monsters. Thank God I was born here.

    But what do you do when the monsters are already in charge and you have nothing to fight with and no hope?  It's a horrible, horrible place to be and I have so much sympathy for Legion's friend Mani and so many others in that position.
    Going out in a pot noodle fuelled Mary Spender bender....
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  • pmbombpmbomb Frets: 218
    edited June 11
    On the whole people are making these horrendous journeys because they want a decent shot at life. Can't blame the for that, we'd all do it too.

    My concern is there must be literally hundreds of millions (billions?) who want to come to Europe for that reason. If everyone who wants to, or even who has a good case on grounds of persecution, was allowed to, Europe in the sense we know it would cease to exist. It would be an over-populated, ghettoised, hell, perhaps much like the places the migrants are leaving.

    At what point do we have to say "no more"?

    ps as for the "rescuers" picking up the boats, is that a pull factor? you bet it is. basically it encourages the trade and pushes the risk back down the queue to the next - bigger - batch. they save a life and risk 10 more.
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  • pmbombpmbomb Frets: 218
    Mani's story is beyond comprehension for most of us I think.

    I think the same when I hear "the Taliban came for my son so I told him to leave and never come back". I'd send my son too.

    But I don't see we can fix that. Mani made it (I won't say he's lucky) - but "the gang" is still terrorising his neighbourhood, we can't change that for the people there.


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  • DanRDanR Frets: 601
    fandango said:
    Assad is doing a good enough job of wrecking Syria without western interference. Many north African countries are riven by internal divisions that have nothing to do with the west. But agree that the west's handling of these problems aren't solving them.

    Let's get to the nub. There's a certain group of religious folk who's remit is to conquer the world.  We know who they are, and it's not the Buddhists, the Amish or the Quakers. Internal violence and civil strife is only one excuse for them to leave their homeland and spread out into other countries. They are migrating whether there are bombs or not, since we are seeing migrants also coming from countries that aren't experiencing civil war.
    Christians just can't stop it can they.

    Think they would of learned the last time they tried to push their religion on the world.
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  • DanRDanR Frets: 601
    fandango said:


    I recently sat and played cards with a man called Mani, who arrived from Eritrea a year or so back. He decided to leave after his brother was killed in the street. He packed a bag for him, his wife and their daughter and left the home they'd lived in together for years, which represented all of their savings. 

    3 months later he made it to England... his wife and child died during the long journey.

    The reason young men are arriving alone is often heartbreaking. 
    These families are the future of their country. Or should be the future, if they got a grip and tried to change their nation for the better, instead of jacking it in and allowing the violence to have the upper hand. By leaving they're condemning their own nation.

    Just like the families that move our of bad neighbourhoods should stay and turn it round.
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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2243
    edited June 11
    Hmmmm ... a "better life, eh?" So what would happen if I got fed up with my cheap little 3-bed semi and my miniscule wage packet, and rocked up to, say, Belgravia, and set up camp on some rich git's doorstep saying "I want a better life, give me some of what you've got". 
    We would call you a socialist.

    In the old days, we had economic migrants and refugees, which allowed us to help those who really needed it. Now we are not supposed to differentiate, so those who *really* need the help get drowned out.
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  • darthed1981darthed1981 Frets: 1879
    Hmmmm ... a "better life, eh?" So what would happen if I got fed up with my cheap little 3-bed semi and my miniscule wage packet, and rocked up to, say, Belgravia, and set up camp on some rich git's doorstep saying "I want a better life, give me some of what you've got". I can't imagine the rich git feeling in any way obliged towards me, even if I threatened to drown myself in the Thames. I might expect him to help if here were some nasty thugs after me with baseball bats though.
    The rich git does help you though, he pays a bigger proportion of his higher income in tax that goes to fund your health care, police, roads  etc.  What you are talking about is baked into our society and system of government.

    We all benefit from redistribution of wealth.  It makes poor areas safer and better policed so violence doesn't spread into wealthier areas.  It ensures Mr Belgravia doesn't get guillotined and his house turned into flats for the homeless.

    Funnily enough, that is why the increasing gap between rich and poor is such a worry, not because of the wealth of the rich or necessarily the poverty of the poor, but the fact our society will eventually get to a point where you would turn up not with cap in hand, but a gun in hand, and a length of rope, and you would kill mr Belgravias children when he didn't tell you where the safe was (Not you personally Phil, I've met you you are a lovely guy, figurative "you" ;) )

    Maybe you have stumbled on the solution, global wealth redistribution...
    Going out in a pot noodle fuelled Mary Spender bender....
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  • fandangofandango Frets: 1029
    edited June 11
    DefaultM said:
    My wife had an interesting conversation with someone the other day, where she tried to explain that one group of people can't be claiming all the benefits but also taking all the jobs.

    Their response was "...well I just don't like 'em. They should stay where they are", which I thought was an excellent and well reasoned argument.

    Its a tough one, because on one hand I wouldn't want my wife and kids to be raped and killed in front of me if I stayed, but I also wouldn't want a little English guy behind his computer screen to imply I hadn't been brave if I left!
    You referring to me. Well ... okay...... I don't have to think too hard to know that Mani and his ilk couldn't give tuppence about me, my neighbours or the man on the clapham omnibus. He doesn't know me from Adam/Eve, so why should he care? He sees a land of milk and honey of handouts and freebies, an easy life away from the violence ... and thinks, yeah, I'll have some of that. It's not a hard choice at all. The really hard choice was to have stayed and stick it out to bring about change his own country for the better. And that's the point I will keep making. He's abdicated all responsibility for his welfare to some other nation - Britain. Whilst we do extend the hand of friendship, that doesn't mean we should entertain every Tom, Dick and Harry from problem nations to come and take advantage of us. Cruel to be kind and all that. There's helping the genuine and there's being taken for a ride.

    Surely, if we want to help these people, we need to be helping them in their own land. No I'm not talking bombs to stop the violence. Or the bottomless pit that's financial aid. But we should be looking to help resolve their internal differences. That's a proper use of aid/friendship, and will realise a greater reward than the short term sticking plaster of bombing the perpetrators. They need far better help in sorting out their problems. Giving them £30 a week & housing them in Britain will never resolve them. That just weakens an already weak nation.

    LewisYL7 said:
    I found the following pretty interesting:

    https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-adam-buxton-podcast/id1040481893?mt=2&i=1000394978761

    Especially for those who have preconceived notions on immigrants and their motives and “cowardice”. 
    Now, now, you are confusing an immigrant who is exercising their freedom of choice, and refugee who's fleeing from genuine persecution (or whatever the legal definition is).

    They both want better lives, but there's a very clear difference. 

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  • LegionreturnsLegionreturns Frets: 4533
    ^^^^^ you clearly glossed over the full Mani story as it didn't fit your required narrative. 

    Go back and read it, then let me know when you're ready to come and talk to him in person over a cuppa and I'll arrange it. I guarantee you that the conversation would change your mind. I've also rarely met someone with so little left, who's prepared to give what he's got to the benefit of complete strangers. 

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  • CirrusCirrus Frets: 3510
    fandango said:
    You referring to me. Well ... okay...... I don't have to think too hard to know that Mani and his ilk couldn't give tuppence about me, my neighbours or the man on the clapham omnibus. He doesn't know me from Adam/Eve, so why should he care?

    I'd hate to come across an amateur psychologist, but that just reads like you're projecting: you don't give a shit about him or anyone like him, and it's easier to switch off your sense of empathy if you think this guy feels the same way as you.


    fandango said:
    He sees a land of milk and honey of handouts and freebies, an easy life away from the violence ... and thinks, yeah, I'll have some of that. It's not a hard choice at all.

    Except that doesn't make a lot of sense, that, does it? It'd make sense if he thought it'd be an easy ride over to the UK and that he'd get everything provided for him. But I think most people involved in the migrant crisis know the journey is, to put it mildly, pretty perilous. This guy apparently lost his family. He left everything he owned, his whole life, behind. That's not an uncommon story. Unless you think these people are somehow less human than we are, you have to assume they wouldn't leave it all behind unless they absolutely had to, because that's a pretty traumatic thing to do. You think they do that for a few quid a week and a shitty asylum centre, and the chance to be hated by all?

    It's also a pretty common belief among the right wing/ nationalist crowd: "Look! We're a soft touch! They're all coming over here taking advantage of our kindness!" It's a great way to get people riled up, but it's mostly bullshit.Look at our government. We're hostile to immigrants. We've recently been deporting people who have lived here for 50 years. 

    The truth is much more humdrum: people choose to go to the UK for practical reasons; for example, their strongest second language is English, so they want to go somewhere they can communicate. Or they have a connection to the uk; family or some affinity ...


    .... eh, fuck it. Here I am in the middle of writing a reasoned, long reply but it's a waste of time, isn't it? You're not going to change your mind. You're sitting there saying this particular refugee should have either stayed where he was and died or gone back and died when he lost his family. Nothing I'll say will get to you. Your position isn't rational, thought through or humane. You're trotting out classic nationalist lines. You're just expressing an instinctive tribalism that's at the root of most of the bullshit human civilisation has got wrong since the dawn of history. I'm not going to try to reason with you.

    Do me a favour, though. If you take up @Legionreturns ' offer to meet this guy, and tell him to his face he should have stayed and died, could you film it for me? I'm interested to know if you'd have the guts.
    Captain Horizon (my old band);
    Very (!) Occasional Blog
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  • nick79nick79 Frets: 139
    I have literally just landed back in the UK after a trip to Turin. All I can say is... I can fully understand why the Italians feel that way.

    I have family in Rome, and after visiting them not long ago i can understand too. 
    i have every sympathy for the Mani's of this world, but the reality is a lot aren't like him at all. 
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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 13079
    Gassage said:
    1 - Stop bombing the shit out of / selling arms to tin pot dictators of their country

    2 - Recognise that dragging your arse half way across the world, through grave danger, losing family members and everything you own along the way is a pretty drastic choice and not "easy" so there must be a reason for it. (See point 1)
    Talking of boats, I believe you just sank @Emp_Fab 's entire fleet with one post.

    Top work.
    Excuse Moi...  my “fleet” ?

    Are you implying / under the misapprehension that I have some strongly held belief one way or the other on this problem ?  I’m inclined to believe that is your viewpoint from your comment.  @Gassage ;
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  • pmbombpmbomb Frets: 218
    edited June 11
    -redacted-

    I've made this mistake before: the rule is on internet forums never post in the off topic areas! No good comes of it.
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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 4068
    ICBM said:
    1 - Stop bombing the shit out of / selling arms to tin pot dictators of their country

    2 - Recognise that dragging your arse half way across the world, through grave danger, losing family members and everything you own along the way is a pretty drastic choice and not "easy" so there must be a reason for it. (See point 1)
    One wisdom is not enough for that...

    The vast majority of refugees are coming from countries wrecked by Western interference. While we continue this idiotic policy, we have no right to turn the people who have suffered as a result of it away.
    I can't see the logic of that. Here's another perspective

    Here's my premise:
    • In any random reboot of world history, there would be a set of countries holding economic and political power, and 200 other countries not in that position.
    • In most foreseeable worlds, the powerful countries would be the minority of the world population
    • The powerful countries would try to use their influence and power to shape the way the rest of the world is run (I think it's inevitable)
    • The actions of their leaders of the powerful countries will always be resented in poorer countries
    • Some people in the wealthy countries will be racked with guilt about the injustice of all countries not being equal, and the power exercised by their leaders 
    • Some poorer countries will be awful places to live, some will be in a state of civil war (to be fair, as most wealthy states have been too at some point, it's not specific to poor countries)
    So the question is, should guilty-feeling people in wealthy countries, feeling empathy, believe that people in poorer countries should have the right to move en masse to the wealthy countries?

    I suppose it has an appeal in the sense of a punishment for the wealthy countries for interfering with the poorer ones

    Is it fair for the occupants / citizens of the wealthy countries? Very few of them have set out to disrupt other countries, I'd find it hard to blame a random Uk citizen for what a UK arms company sells. I think there's culpability if your state is engaged directly in genocide or slavery, for example, but I don't think any western countries are since WW2.

    In this day and age it is hard to see how mass asylum will progress. It's pretty easy to imagine it increasing in scale. All the evidence so far seems to indicate this is what will happen for Europe, which has land borders with Asia, and is a short sea crossing from Africa

    What effect would increasing migration have in the wealthy countries to which people travel?  I'm thinking there's probably various threshold levels at which local residents are uncomfortable, leading up to ghettoes and "white flights". We've seen it before, but at a slower pace. At what percentage of foreign-born people in a country would one consider its culture damaged? If we spoke of rich Northern Europeans moving to Lisbon, Prague or wherever, many would be happy to cry "gentrification", and criticise the destruction of local communities by incomers. Mass immigration of the poor does this, but without the gentrification.
    Regardless of ideals about global justice, these are clearly not positive outcomes for existing residents of wealthy countries.

    For that reason, I think that we do have the right to turn people away.  Refugees should not select their destination, it should be allocated.
    I think it's time to subcontract asylum, and to limit the ethnic cleansing effects.
    Where possible, people should be housed in neighbouring countries, and be supported with education to be ready to resume their lives and rebuild their countries once the danger has passed.  For some countries this may never happen, usually it does.


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  • Phil_aka_PipPhil_aka_Pip Frets: 8802

    For that reason, I think that we do have the right to turn people away.  Refugees should not select their destination, it should be allocated.
    That's what makes me think a lot of then aren't refugees. If they were, they'd be happy to be anywhere that isn't the place they ran away from. But no, France isn't good enough, they want to come here. If they put half the effort into making themselves employable in France as they do into climbing on trucks, they could have jobs and houses.
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • LewisYL7LewisYL7 Frets: 0
    fandango said:
    LewisYL7 said:
    I found the following pretty interesting:

    https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-adam-buxton-podcast/id1040481893?mt=2&i=1000394978761

    Especially for those who have preconceived notions on immigrants and their motives and “cowardice”. 
    Now, now, you are confusing an immigrant who is exercising their freedom of choice, and refugee who's fleeing from genuine persecution (or whatever the legal definition is).

    They both want better lives, but there's a very clear difference. 

    You’re right I did. I still think if you listen to that podcast with even a slightly open mind you would get something out of it though. Either that or go and meet Mani. 
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 2881
    why not just rescue them from drowning and then take them back to north Africa
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • DefaultMDefaultM Frets: 1881
    fandango said:
    DefaultM said:
    My wife had an interesting conversation with someone the other day, where she tried to explain that one group of people can't be claiming all the benefits but also taking all the jobs.

    Their response was "...well I just don't like 'em. They should stay where they are", which I thought was an excellent and well reasoned argument.

    Its a tough one, because on one hand I wouldn't want my wife and kids to be raped and killed in front of me if I stayed, but I also wouldn't want a little English guy behind his computer screen to imply I hadn't been brave if I left!
    You referring to me. Well ... okay...... I don't have to think too hard to know that Mani and his ilk couldn't give tuppence about me, my neighbours or the man on the clapham omnibus. He doesn't know me from Adam/Eve, so why should he care? He sees a land of milk and honey of handouts and freebies, an easy life away from the violence ... and thinks, yeah, I'll have some of that. It's not a hard choice at all. The really hard choice was to have stayed and stick it out to bring about change his own country for the better. And that's the point I will keep making. He's abdicated all responsibility for his welfare to some other nation - Britain. Whilst we do extend the hand of friendship, that doesn't mean we should entertain every Tom, Dick and Harry from problem nations to come and take advantage of us. Cruel to be kind and all that. There's helping the genuine and there's being taken for a ride.

    Surely, if we want to help these people, we need to be helping them in their own land. No I'm not talking bombs to stop the violence. Or the bottomless pit that's financial aid. But we should be looking to help resolve their internal differences. That's a proper use of aid/friendship, and will realise a greater reward than the short term sticking plaster of bombing the perpetrators. They need far better help in sorting out their problems. Giving them £30 a week & housing them in Britain will never resolve them. That just weakens an already weak nation.
    I love it when they take the bait.
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  • Axe_meisterAxe_meister Frets: 2152
    Africa's two biggest issues are Tribalism and education. The two factors are unfortunately interlinked. Tribal leaders don't want the people to be educated.

    I spend many an hour talking to uber drivers from Africa. Some have lost every thing some are have come here for a better life. (one earns money here to fund a company he's starting in Africa.

    My hope is that places like India and China will start to ask for minimum wages so western countries look to the next lot of people to "exploit". This is why China is investing heavily into Africa. 
    Yes it exploitation  but it will give these nations a chance to grow.
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  • BigLicks67BigLicks67 Frets: 477
    Whatever, the pro and cons of helping people from fleeing bad situations it is obviously not a sustainable option in the long term, as evidenced by the problems in Italy and the rise of right wing populist parties. It's time we stopped letting heart rule the head and looked at a solution that will work to both close the door on unfettered immigration and stop the need for it in the first place.
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16282
    They are not vigilantes .. more poor journalism. Italy (and the EU) have been paying and offering economic support to Libya in return for stopping migrants from sailing. The fact Libya may have employed some dodgy people to run it is another issue. This is state sponsored intervention.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • TimcitoTimcito Frets: 5
    pmbomb said:
    On the whole people are making these horrendous journeys because they want a decent shot at life. Can't blame the for that, we'd all do it too.

    My concern is there must be literally hundreds of millions (billions?) who want to come to Europe for that reason. If everyone who wants to, or even who has a good case on grounds of persecution, was allowed to, Europe in the sense we know it would cease to exist. It would be an over-populated, ghettoised, hell, perhaps much like the places the migrants are leaving.

    At what point do we have to say "no more"?

    p

      Another oft-forgotten reality is that an immigrant is not a cultural blank sheet. That person has lived within a regime all his life and absorbed its nature. He may have been on the receiving end of its ire or injustice, but that does not mean he is immune to its influence. When I lived in Rome, Italy, in the 90s, it was not uncommon for Romans to lambast the corruption of their government … and then perform acts of corruption themselves on a much smaller scale. When nations accept large numbers of immigrants, they are accepting cultural influences commensurate with those numbers. That's not to say nations should necessarily close their doors, but they should at least be aware that the immigrants are not going to come in and then obediently turn into carbon copy Brits or French or Germans. In fact, upon arrival, they may institute behaviours that are actually abhorrent to the natives of their new host nation.  

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  • Jock68Jock68 Frets: 149
    There is a massive problem and you cannot blame these people for wanting a better life for themselves and their family, we would all do the same.  We also have a problem where people complain about the West interfering in other countries, although leaving them alone may not help them either.  I would estimate that there are over 500,000,000 people who qualify under the current EU Rules as being a Refugee. Their life is at risk and they are being punished for their beliefs.  So what is the answer?
    It is not allowing 600 people into Italy, it is about allowing 20,000,000 into Italy and into Germany and into France and another 20,000,000 into the UK.   So now lets discuss the solution because I can assure you that no one wants 20,000,000 more people in the UK.   People do want to help and that is human nature, bur what is the number that is acceptable?  You must also understand that the more people who come to this country the lower the standard of living we will have. 

    Some people will accept a lower standard of living but what right do any of us have to force a lower standard of living onto another UK citizen, I say that you do not.  You have no right to force anyone to pay for something that they do not want to pay for.. that includes Council Tax but that is another story.  So how many is the question?
    Jock
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