Inhumane separation of children from parents

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  • ColsCols Frets: 6953
    Cols said:
    Fretwired said:
    **STOP PRESS **

    Trump has demanded Congress urgently pass a bill to stop parents and children being separated.
    Does it need a bill?  I’m reasonably sure that the Trump administration can unilaterally revoke the policy.

    Trump can revoke it without Congress but it's unconstitutional and I don't think Congress will have an issue with passing it especially with all of the outrage in the media. 
    The terrible cynic in me suspects that he wants to tie it to a bill in order to tag on a bunch of other stuff he wants, and then accuse the Democrats of being obstructive when they ask for it to be amended.
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  • JezWyndJezWynd Frets: 6021
    edited June 2018
    He wants money for his wall. This whole affair is about wall funding. 

    If he’s as rich as he says he is (no sniggering at the back), why doesn’t he just gift the damn thing to the nation.
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 24601
    JezWynd said:
    He wants money for his wall. This whole affair is about wall funding. 

    If he’s as rich as he says he is (no sniggering at the back), why doesn’t he just gift the damn thing to the nation.

    I can't see Trump building a $26 billion wall .. just think how many armed bordered guards he could employ for that money. The wall won't work away. The gangs already dig deep tunnels or use speed boats. The EU can't keep economic migrants out  nor can the US.

    If you want to solve the problem you need to share the world's wealth around and make the world a safer place to make it less attractive for people to want to leave home.


    Remember, it's easier to criticise than create!
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  • littlegreenmanlittlegreenman Frets: 4958
    edited June 2018
    Fretwired said:

    If you want to solve the problem you need to share the world's wealth around and make the world a safer place to make it less attractive for people to want to leave home.

    Somehow I can't see the U.S. buying into that idea, *insert Redneck accent* "you Goddamn Commie Faggot!". ;)

    *edit* In case one was necessary, added a winky smiley above...


    littlegreenman < My tunes here...
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 24601
    Fretwired said:

    If you want to solve the problem you need to share the world's wealth around and make the world a safer place to make it less attractive for people to want to leave home.

    Somehow I can't see the U.S. buying into that idea, *insert Redneck accent* "you Goddamn Commie Faggot!".


    It wouldn't cost much if the G7 helped the third world - how much are we spending on aimless aid and trying to deter illegal migrants? And besides, once they start getting wealthy they'll be buying all our tat from guitars to cars.

    Before the US entered the Vietnam war a four star general was asked how the US could win. He said give them Coca Cola, television, cars, and a democracy. He was ignored. it was sound advice.

    Remember, it's easier to criticise than create!
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  • Fretwired said:
    Fretwired said:

    If you want to solve the problem you need to share the world's wealth around and make the world a safer place to make it less attractive for people to want to leave home.

    Somehow I can't see the U.S. buying into that idea, *insert Redneck accent* "you Goddamn Commie Faggot!".


    It wouldn't cost much if the G7 helped the third world - how much are we spending on aimless aid and trying to deter illegal migrants? And besides, once they start getting wealthy they'll be buying all our tat from guitars to cars.

    Before the US entered the Vietnam war a four star general was asked how the US could win. He said give them Coca Cola, television, cars, and a democracy. He was ignored. it was sound advice.
    Absolutely agree, but there's a whole section of society worldwide that will never accept that as a solution, sadly. There's more than enough resources globally for everyone to be doing way more than OK if we helped each other out. Doesn't fit with some people's idea of how society should work though, which is a shame.

    At least Trump has sorted out South Korea ;)

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    littlegreenman < My tunes here...
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  • GrangousierGrangousier Frets: 2620
    He's going to end it by executive order, apparently, though it's difficult to tell. He's the kind of person who would punch you in the face repeatedly and expect you to thank him for saving you when he stops. 
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  • ColsCols Frets: 6953
    edited June 2018
    Fretwired said:
    Cols said:
    Fretwired said:
    **STOP PRESS **

    Trump has demanded Congress urgently pass a bill to stop parents and children being separated.
    Does it need a bill?  I’m reasonably sure that the Trump administration can unilaterally revoke the policy.
    Needs a bill apparently for the reason I stated before.
    It’s a policy decision to criminally prosecute anyone crossing the border illegally.  And as you can’t very well throw children in jail with adult criminals, they are separated from the parents.  Changing that policy doesn’t require Congressional approval.

    So what will the legislation be?  That it’s ok to jail children together with adult criminals, or that it’s no longer illegal to enter the US without authorisation as long as you’ve got a kid with you?  Trump has made a right s**t stew here.

    I somehow missed your rationale that a bill is needed (‘‘tis a long thread), can you remind me?
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 24601
    Cols said:
    Fretwired said:
    Cols said:
    Fretwired said:
    **STOP PRESS **

    Trump has demanded Congress urgently pass a bill to stop parents and children being separated.
    Does it need a bill?  I’m reasonably sure that the Trump administration can unilaterally revoke the policy.
    Needs a bill apparently for the reason I stated before.
    It’s a policy decision to criminally prosecute anyone crossing the border illegally.  And as you can’t very well throw children in jail with adult criminals, they are separated from the parents.  Changing that policy doesn’t require Congressional approval.

    So what will the legislation be?  That it’s ok to jail children together with adult criminals, or that it’s no longer illegal to enter the US without authorisation as long as you’ve got a kid with you?  Trump has made a right s**t stew here.

    I somehow missed your rationale that a bill is needed (‘‘tis a long thread), can you remind me?
    States can ignore it unless it becomes law. Trump can say what he likes but nobody has to take any notice. Go and read the NY Times. It has an excellent explanation.

    Looks like Congress will pass a bill - why would they do it if they didn't have to?



    Remember, it's easier to criticise than create!
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 24601
    Some movement ...

    President Donald Trump this afternoon signed an executive order ending family separation at the border. Trump did not end the 'zero tolerance' provision of his policy that requires the prosecution of all unlawful immigrants as criminals. His order merely authorizes DHS to hold families together while prosecution is pending.


    The president said Congress would have to take action and is backing two bills currently being drafted.


    Remember, it's easier to criticise than create!
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  • ColsCols Frets: 6953
    Fretwired said:
    Some movement ...

    President Donald Trump this afternoon signed an executive order ending family separation at the border. Trump did not end the 'zero tolerance' provision of his policy that requires the prosecution of all unlawful immigrants as criminals. His order merely authorizes DHS to hold families together while prosecution is pending.


    The president said Congress would have to take action and is backing two bills currently being drafted.

    The Obama administration tried to hold immigrant families together in 2014, and this was ruled to be unlawful.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/26/us/detained-immigrant-children-judge-dolly-gee-ruling.html

    Trump seems to be seeking to alter the legislation to allow immigrant children to be ‘detained indefinitely’ with their families, which sounds pretty chilling.
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 24601
    Cols said:
    Fretwired said:
    Some movement ...

    President Donald Trump this afternoon signed an executive order ending family separation at the border. Trump did not end the 'zero tolerance' provision of his policy that requires the prosecution of all unlawful immigrants as criminals. His order merely authorizes DHS to hold families together while prosecution is pending.


    The president said Congress would have to take action and is backing two bills currently being drafted.

    The Obama administration tried to hold immigrant families together in 2014, and this was ruled to be unlawful.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/26/us/detained-immigrant-children-judge-dolly-gee-ruling.html

    Trump seems to be seeking to alter the legislation to allow immigrant children to be ‘detained indefinitely’ with their families, which sounds pretty chilling.
    There's also no guarantee his executive order will be obeyed to the letter. People are being held in inhumane conditions - old warehouses with cages and tents in 40 degree heat.

    This needs legislation in Congress for a change in the law and proper funding for decent accommodation for those awaiting processing. The US system of governance is so complicated. No wonder Obama was stymied at every turn.

    Remember, it's easier to criticise than create!
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  • GrumpyrockerGrumpyrocker Frets: 4118
    There's nothing more revolting than cowards hiding behind this inhumane treatment of children because "it is legal." 

    Apartheid was legal. The Holocaust was legal. The Jim Crow Laws were legal. Slavery was legal. Whether something is legal can be about power and the way it is used against people without power. Legality does not necessarily guarantee something is just. 

    Seeing anyone claim that these families deserved this because they were "illegal immigrants" is just pathetically cowardly. So If you're a massive racist just admit it, don't hide behind your pretence of legality. And shame on you. 

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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 24601
    Trump will be challenged in court after 20 days over his executive order .. looks like it's illegal.

    A seriously flawed system of government.

    Remember, it's easier to criticise than create!
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  • FunkfingersFunkfingers Frets: 14321
    It should be obvious from Trump's latest pronouncement on this topic that he is making everything up as he goes along. The thought process that should go into these matters is provided, after the fact, by members of the President's entourage.

    A classic example of the maxim, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."
    Be seeing you.
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  • GrumpyrockerGrumpyrocker Frets: 4118
    Fretwired said:
    Trump will be challenged in court after 20 days over his executive order .. looks like it's illegal.

    A seriously flawed system of government.
    Away from the horrible emotive elements - as a former student of the US political system - it's fascinating (and scary) how this long held system of checks and balances that supposedly defended the USA from tyrants is now falling apart. I wonder once the Trump administration is over (if it is over in a positive way) whether there will be soul searching about changes to the constitution to prevent such abuses again. 

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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 24601
    edited June 2018
    It should be obvious from Trump's latest pronouncement on this topic that he is making everything up as he goes along. The thought process that should go into these matters is provided, after the fact, by members of the President's entourage.

    A classic example of the maxim, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."
    I don't think he is .. he's playing politics with peoples lives. The loop that's causing this was a law passed by the Democrats .. Trump decides to stick to the letter of the law and blames his opponents, he then demands a bill to fix the problem and accuses his opponents of blocking it (not exactly true) and then signs an executive order knowing it will be challenged. I don't for a minute think he gives a jot about the people suffering in what passes for detention centres, but he's not being stupid or making it up as he goes along. He's out to get the Democrats before the mid-term elections and is slowly ratcheting up the pressure.

    Remember, it's easier to criticise than create!
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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2777
    Illegal immigration is NOT a crime in the US it is a mistemeaner (spelling?),
    But if it is illegal, surely it is a crime?
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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2777
    Fretwired said:

    If you want to solve the problem you need to share the world's wealth around and make the world a safer place to make it less attractive for people to want to leave home.

    Somehow I can't see the U.S. buying into that idea, *insert Redneck accent* "you Goddamn Commie Faggot!". ;)

    *edit* In case one was necessary, added a winky smiley above...


    Arguably, that has been happening since 2008. Standards of living haven't really changed much in a lot of the Western World compared to previous growth levels, while growth has continued in much of the developing world. Obviously there is a long way to go, but the unavoidable balancing is happening..
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  • ColsCols Frets: 6953
    quarky said:
    Illegal immigration is NOT a crime in the US it is a mistemeaner (spelling?),
    But if it is illegal, surely it is a crime?
    Illegal entry to the US is against the law.

    Driving my car at 31mph in a 30mph zone is against the law.  Yet, the police don’t drag me kicking and screaming from my car and take my kids away if they catch me doing it.

    The difference - and what has changed to provoke this crisis - is how the law is enforced.  

    The Trump Administration’s policy since May is to bring criminal charges against anyone crossing the border illegally and imprison them.  Previously it would have been treated as a misdemeanour (a lesser charge) for first time offenders and they would have been simply deported back to Mexico.
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