How close is an R9 to a real '59?

meltedbuzzbox

ATB_Guitars said:

Jonathanthomas83 said:

Similarly, how close is an R8 to a '58? I know they're meant to be amazing replica's of the best and most sought after guitars in Gibson's history, but for those who've had the luxury of playing an original, how close do they get?

Not even close. Nowhere near in terms of feel, vibe, smell, look and general feeling of excitement it will bring. 

It is not just the sound or playability that makes these guitars special, it is a combination of so many factors that all work together to produce an instrument that more often than not, a truly wonderful thing to have.

If you get a good original 59, 58 or 60 that has not been messed around with too much, you will have one hell of a guitar that I guarantee no R8/R9 will be able to touch. 

I guarantee that a percentage of 58/59/60 Les Paul's play like dogs and I guarantee a percentage aren't all that special.

Blanket statements like yours are part of the problem when it comes to the vintage market. 

richardhomer

I’ve played a few old Les Pauls - a 58 Standard, 54 & 68 Gold Tops and a 56 Custom. The 54 & 68 sounded pretty much identical - yet the vintage market values them very differently. Was the 58 ‘magic’? Well it was certainly better than the Gibson Heritage Standard 80 I owned at the time - but not a night and day revelation.

I watched the Eric Clapton ‘Life in 12 Bars’ DVD last night. His Bluesbreaker tone was undeniably great - but his ‘Fool’ SG sounded epic as well. He clearly did not need ‘a burst’ to sound great.

I think @WezV’s comment is probably closest to the truth - modern Custom Shop Gibsons being generally better made out of slightly inferior materials. Some comments in this thread cast aspersions at those who can’t tell the difference; I’m not suggesting there isn’t a difference - the question is how great it is - and does it matter?

I recently sold my ‘64 334, which I owned for 15 years. It had all kinds of associations - my year of birth, the same colour/year as the Clapton one, the ‘vintage’ smell, etc. Was it a good guitar? Yes - without question. Did I play it much? No. Why? Hard to say really - but I suppose it simply boils down to the fact that there were other guitars I enjoyed playing more - including a PRS DGT for humbucking duties. I suspect those with vested interests in the vintage market will scoff at this - may be even suggesting I don’t have the ‘golden ears’ neccessary to properly appreciate these things. There’s a chance they may be right - but there’s also a possibility that they’re not....

One thing’s for sure - I don’t need a guitar of certain age to get music out of it.

gringopig

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Brize

jumping@shadows said:

Here’s a couple of my recent projects, a ‘53/‘59, ‘52/‘56 and 2012 R9 makeover...guess which ones produce some of the greatest electric guitar tones I’ve ever heard in person, and which one sounds flat/harsh/cheap? 

I don't doubt that, but I'd still rather hear a really good guitarist play the 2012 than an average guitarist play the conversions.

guitars4you

Some may well remember over 12 months ago I acquired a Terry Morgan LP - I still have some  bruises on me, following that serious beating !!!!!

It was eventually sold to another fellow FB member, who later sold it as well, only a few months later

It certainly had some mojo regarding its visual aesthetics, regarding the colour of the burst, the figured maple top etc, the aged process - Did I think it was the be all and end all regarding feel, tonal character ? - No and on that basis I would not have placed it any higher on any pedestal than a good R9

Not sure what the fellow FB member thought of it and how his opinions compare to mine

brooom

The more time goes by and the more I play. The less I care about this kind of discussion.

Brize

guitars4you said:

Not sure what the fellow FB member thought of it and how his opinions compare to mine

Given that he flogged it a few months later I'm guessing he felt the same way.

Are you sure it was a genuine Terry Morgan and not a replica?

Jonathanthomas83

brooom said:

The more time goes by and the more I play. The less I care about this kind of discussion.

Yet here we are, discussing it.

gringopig

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merlin

I may have posted this before. I think it's a great talk that can be applied to the ownership of vintage instruments. Please watch! 

https://www.ted.com/talks/paul_bloom_the_origins_of_pleasure

guitars4you

gringopig said:

Brize said:

guitars4you said:

Not sure what the fellow FB member thought of it and how his opinions compare to mine

Given that he flogged it a few months later I'm guessing he felt the same way.

Are you sure it was a genuine Terry Morgan and not a replica?

Aha LOL. Either weird irony about a replica of a replica or sweet sweet sarcasm....

maybe that is why the feel and tone never measured up to that magical 'boutique' expectation !!!

gringopig

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brooom

Jonathanthomas83 said:

brooom said:

The more time goes by and the more I play. The less I care about this kind of discussion.

Yet here we are, discussing it.

I think the only thing I'm discussing, is the fact that I'm not discussing :P

OilCityPickups

p90fool said:

Jonathanthomas83 said

 My understanding is that the Custom Buckers are pretty close to original PAF's, or at least, that's the marketing spiel. Are the OX4s even closer? 

You could doubtless find an original PAF that sounds exactly like a Custom Bucker and another which sounds exactly like an OX4, hence my slightly facetious original answer to your question. 

Just like pretty much every 59 LP was unique, so just about every pair of pickups was different too. There is no definitive PAF because Gibson never standardised it ... at least not in the 50s. There are no 'bad' PAF' replicas, just pickups based on different originals.

jumping@shadows

skaguitar said:

jumping@shadows said:

merlin said:

None of the vintage guitars were vintage when they were made. They were all brand spanking new and my guess is that a reissue is more like a new guitar built back then, as it would have been. 

I can't see how all the sweat, piss, smoke and diddly-dong can be added retrospectively. Get a new guitar built to quality specs, from great wood, with great attention to detail, pickups, hardware and soft stuff, made with care and play it's ass off until you're close to dead (or at least older than you are now) then sell it to some young guy who thinks it has "mojo"....

Or am I being cynical?

Yes, if Gibson actually did any of the things you describe then you’d have a fighting chance, but even their most expensive and exclusive attempts look like they’ve been recreated from an artists rendering of a vintage Les Paul.

Here’s a couple of my recent projects, a ‘53/‘59, ‘52/‘56 and 2012 R9 makeover...guess which ones produce some of the greatest electric guitar tones I’ve ever heard in person, and which one sounds flat/harsh/cheap? 

wow... I hope the owner or eventual owner of that R9 isn't reading this thread...they'll be over the moon that they've paid to have it made over and it will still sound cheap and nasty and shrill...:)

I told him once it was completed, and he has some better pickups ready to drop in, which will make a positive difference, but he bought it on the merit of the flame top so it was always a crap shoot..

gringopig

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jumping@shadows

Inevitably these discussions are loaded with a binary have/have not undertone- that people who can afford to pay £250k for a Burst are fools as a decent R9 will do 99% of it ‘in a real players hands’, and those who covet their reissues are fools as the real deal is just a completely different beast.

None of that interests me, partly as I’ll never have £250k to spend on anything in my lifetime, and also as I’ve been up to my ears in Bursts and the like since I was a teenager, and I’ve been able to dispel any myth and mystique by spending many many hours playing, handling and closely inspecting them, and the basic truth is, the two are as different as can be, and although I’m repeating myself, when I lay a modern RI next to a ‘50s guitar the former looks like an ‘Engrish’ Asian translation- a crude guesstimate by a non native speaker, where it’s broadly similar but every nuance is missing, and I’d say Gibson have been surpassed a couple decades ago by innumerable boutique builders in finishing, joinery, QC and R&D.

My chops aren’t what they used to be but I was a professional session player for most of my adult life (and have had access to more unobtainium gear to the point of crushing boredom than most in the U.K.), but I’m absolutely confident one of my conversions would eat any stock RI for tone, looks and feel, and an hour comparing them would make it compellingly obvious why it was a superior Les Paul in every way.

meltedbuzzbox

@jumping@shadows would you bring some of guitars to a fretboard meet up for a real comparison?

jumping@shadows

meltedbuzzbox said:

@jumping@shadows would you bring some of guitars to a fretboard meet up for a real comparison?

Hmm, probably not no as they don’t belong to me, and I’m not hugely motivated to prove anything- I could bring my ‘60 Burst but that’s a ways off full restoration, but again I don’t really have an axe to grind ;-)

fretfinder

meltedbuzzbox said:

ATB_Guitars said:

Jonathanthomas83 said:

Similarly, how close is an R8 to a '58? I know they're meant to be amazing replica's of the best and most sought after guitars in Gibson's history, but for those who've had the luxury of playing an original, how close do they get?

Not even close. Nowhere near in terms of feel, vibe, smell, look and general feeling of excitement it will bring. 

It is not just the sound or playability that makes these guitars special, it is a combination of so many factors that all work together to produce an instrument that more often than not, a truly wonderful thing to have.

If you get a good original 59, 58 or 60 that has not been messed around with too much, you will have one hell of a guitar that I guarantee no R8/R9 will be able to touch. 

I guarantee that a percentage of 58/59/60 Les Paul's play like dogs and I guarantee a percentage aren't all that special.

Blanket statements like yours are part of the problem when it comes to the vintage market. 

To be fair, he did say a ‘GOOD original 59, 58 or 60’.