Trade disputes likely to affect guitar prices?

Vinylfan

Just wondering - is all the talk of trade wars with the US and import tariffs being placed on various items likely to push up the price of USA guitars?

jeztone2

Being as the UK government we’re happy to cancel the TSR-2 bomber project at the behest of the Americans back in 1966. I doubt if anything will change. Fluctuating currencies and wood prices/legislation will probably be the biggest factors. 

JezWynd

Is Nashville a Republican area? If so, then maybe, if things get worse. Fender are safe as I'm guessing California is Democrat. But then we are all boycotting all US made products, aren't we?

crunchman

The tariffs that the EU have put on so far have been very carefully targeted.

They have put a tariff on Bourbon Whiskey, which is produced in Kentucky - the state of the Republican majority leader in the senate.

There is a tariff on orange juice, which will hit Florida hardest.  Florida is a key swing state in US elections.

Tariff on motorbikes - Harley Davidson are based in Wisconsin, which Trump won by less than 25,000 votes (0.8%) at the last election.

California voted Democrat so with Fender, Taylor and various smaller makers there, we are probably safe from tariffs at the moment.

jpttaylor

Makes you wonder whether Fender relaunching/rebranding the Mexican made Player range was a canny move. Or just a complete coincidence, more likely the latter.

gavin_axecaster

The majority of the tariffs are on raw materials sourced/grown in the US or products made from the same (steel/aluminium/farmed products etc) so probably won't have any impact.
Full list here.
http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2018/may/tradoc_156909.pdf

mbe

A 50% tariff now in force on digital audio mixers. Harsh.

scrumhalf

On the basis that any possible excuse is used to increase prices I would imagine so.

stickyfiddle

JezWynd said:

Is Nashville a Republican area? If so, then maybe, if things get worse. Fender are safe as I'm guessing California is Democrat. But then we are all boycotting all US made products, aren't we?

Nashville is a liberal oasis in the republican desert that is the rest of Tennessee.

But Trump & co won’t /don’t care about the actual impact of any of these things on real people, they only care about lining the pockets of their backers in the short term. 

StormshadowGuitars

We could put a tariff on Fucking Idiots and charge him Billions when he comes over

vale

scrumhalf said:

On the basis that any possible excuse is used to increase prices I would imagine so.

truth in this. either or. as the shopping public resign themselves to the fact that some things are going up as an inevitable consequence of a trade war &/or brexit, opportunist retailers will seek to slip unrelated rises into the 'to be perceived as inevitable' mix.

guitars4you

Personally I think it is a total con job that we have to pay import duty on guitars from the USA in the first place - then an additional vat when purchased as a new guitar - Same applies to most imported goods - Yet sod all we can do about it - With import duty and vat, Mrs Mat and co will take around 25% of the proceeds of the sale of that shiny new Gibbo

darthed1981

guitars4you said:

Personally I think it is a total con job that we have to pay import duty on guitars from the USA in the first place - then an additional vat when purchased as a new guitar - Same applies to most imported goods - Yet sod all we can do about it - With import duty and vat, Mrs Mat and co will take around 25% of the proceeds of the sale of that shiny new Gibbo

What frustrates me is how she pockets it and it doesn't go on public services like other taxes

Still surely that is an opportunity for UK based manufacturers (which was originally the point of import duty)?  Labour in the USA is no cheaper than over here, so is there a missing layer in the UK market, you can pay 2k for a Gibson or 2k for a superior <insert brand here> British made guitar?

Most of the very fine UK brands are custom made, ordered from the website or a small boutique jobs, why is there no UK brand that I can walk into PMT or Andertons and try a big range against the usual suspects from the USA?

Genuine question, we have a lot of luthiers and makers here on the forum, why don't they/haven't they take(n) the step up from being a mini custom shop to making a decent production line guitar (maybe even not something that's basically a copy of a Fender or Gibson design) for £1000-£1500?

Is the fault in the stores for not wanting to stock, the simple economics of the UK market...?

Vinylfan

darthed1981 said:

guitars4you said:

Personally I think it is a total con job that we have to pay import duty on guitars from the USA in the first place - then an additional vat when purchased as a new guitar - Same applies to most imported goods - Yet sod all we can do about it - With import duty and vat, Mrs Mat and co will take around 25% of the proceeds of the sale of that shiny new Gibbo

What frustrates me is how she pockets it and it doesn't go on public services like other taxes

Still surely that is an opportunity for UK based manufacturers (which was originally the point of import duty)?  Labour in the USA is no cheaper than over here, so is there a missing layer in the UK market, you can pay 2k for a Gibson or 2k for a superior <insert brand here> British made guitar?

Most of the very fine UK brands are custom made, ordered from the website or a small boutique jobs, why is there no UK brand that I can walk into PMT or Andertons and try a big range against the usual suspects from the USA?

Genuine question, we have a lot of luthiers and makers here on the forum, why don't they/haven't they take(n) the step up from being a mini custom shop to making a decent production line guitar (maybe even not something that's basically a copy of a Fender or Gibson design) for £1000-£1500?

Is the fault in the stores for not wanting to stock, the simple economics of the UK market...?

That's a good question.  I would imagine that its partly down to the fact that moving from a small/boutique manufacturer to one that produces at scale is something that would involve a much higher investment in premises, equipment, people, marketing etc.
Also, you'd potentially lose something of the small, hand-made feel in the process?

Having spoken to people in other sectors that produce in small quantities and have a bespoke type offer, the next step up in terms of size can be quite daunting and costly and therefore represents a big risk.

Could be way off here as I don't know the mechanics of guitar production.

darthed1981

Vinylfan said:

darthed1981 said:

guitars4you said:

Personally I think it is a total con job that we have to pay import duty on guitars from the USA in the first place - then an additional vat when purchased as a new guitar - Same applies to most imported goods - Yet sod all we can do about it - With import duty and vat, Mrs Mat and co will take around 25% of the proceeds of the sale of that shiny new Gibbo

What frustrates me is how she pockets it and it doesn't go on public services like other taxes

Still surely that is an opportunity for UK based manufacturers (which was originally the point of import duty)?  Labour in the USA is no cheaper than over here, so is there a missing layer in the UK market, you can pay 2k for a Gibson or 2k for a superior <insert brand here> British made guitar?

Most of the very fine UK brands are custom made, ordered from the website or a small boutique jobs, why is there no UK brand that I can walk into PMT or Andertons and try a big range against the usual suspects from the USA?

Genuine question, we have a lot of luthiers and makers here on the forum, why don't they/haven't they take(n) the step up from being a mini custom shop to making a decent production line guitar (maybe even not something that's basically a copy of a Fender or Gibson design) for £1000-£1500?

Is the fault in the stores for not wanting to stock, the simple economics of the UK market...?

That's a good question.  I would imagine that its partly down to the fact that moving from a small/boutique manufacturer to one that produces at scale is something that would involve a much higher investment in premises, equipment, people, marketing etc.
Also, you'd potentially lose something of the small, hand-made feel in the process?

Having spoken to people in other sectors that produce in small quantities and have a bespoke type offer, the next step up in terms of size can be quite daunting and costly and therefore represents a big risk.

Could be way off here as I don't know the mechanics of guitar production.

I doubt you are far off.

I know @FelineGuitars posts regularly - what's your opinion?

FelineGuitars

In my opinion : Can't be done in UK in this day and age
Eggle tried ..and failed several times - bankruptcies and huge debts with suppliers.

And before you quote Gordon Smith ..it didn't really work , or wouldn't by today's standards as a UK made operation

It only succeeded as it was a family run operation and was in reality a bit hand to mouth

Material costs(esp price of wood) is going through the roof , property rentals/leases/minimum wage levels.

And similar to the car industry:

No large scale appetite for UK made stuff - mainly only a niche appreciation for high end quality Brit made stuff 

And here is the real reason for me personally 

I like making the kind of high end beautiful guitars that i love and would be proud to own 

If I had to step up and run an operation where we churned out an affordable "mass produced" item it would take something away from me . 

Add to that the headaches of running a big operation, dealing with many many members of staff and their issues and personal disputes ...no thanks!

If it got to the point that you were simply running a big operation that could be making anything as the end product , whilst being tens of thousands of pounds (if not more)in the red at the bank, I think I'd rather go and work in another job.

Running a company with me ending up stuck in an office and rarely getting on the shop floor  it would have no passion left for me and I may as well go and work in an office job without getting an ulcer over keeping the business afloat.

Bigsby

darthed1981 said:

why is there no UK brand that I can walk into PMT or Andertons and try a big range against the usual suspects from the USA?

Genuine question, we have a lot of luthiers and makers here on the forum, why don't they/haven't they take(n) the step up from being a mini custom shop to making a decent production line guitar (maybe even not something that's basically a copy of a Fender or Gibson design) for £1000-£1500?

Is the fault in the stores for not wanting to stock, the simple economics of the UK market...?

You have to look at the history of it - demand for electric solid body guitars took off in America first; at the time a war-wealthy nation with a baby-boomer generation of teenagers with pockets full of cash. In the UK, we were economically wiped out by the war, & when it came to demand for guitars we were about a decade behind the USA. And Brits mostly were lusting after American instruments, which had been hard to get due to the UK being engaged in an export drive, and generally trying to limit imports (for currency reasons).

As a result, the British brands, like Burns, never really got into the international limelight, and never had the chance to grow through the 60s/70s/80s in the way the US brands did. 

It would be an act of reckless optimism to move from small scale production to mass production without the demand for the product already being in place, as such, you can't really blame the retailers; many do stock brands like Gordon Smith, or Shergold (even if they're no longer UK made) - you can actually walk into Andertons and try out a selection of Gordon Smith guitars, I just looked at their site and they've got 15 listed. Simple fact of the market place, many in the UK would rather spend £1200 on a mass produced Gibson SG Junior than £900 on a GS1 made to their personal specifications. In part, that's the power of brand and product identity. And it's always been a bit like that over here. I considered a UK-made Shergold as my third guitar in the 70s, but ended up with a USA-made Guild.

darthed1981

FelineGuitars said:

No large scale appetite for UK made stuff - mainly only a niche appreciation for high end quality Brit made stuff 

...

And here is the real reason for me personally 

I like making the kind of high end beautiful guitars that i love and would be proud to own 

If I had to step up and run an operation where we churned out an affordable "mass produced" item it would take something away from me .

Thanks for that reply. 

Interesting discussion, thanks guys.

FelineGuitars

darthed1981 said:

guitars4you said:

Personally I think it is a total con job that we have to pay import duty on guitars from the USA in the first place - then an additional vat when purchased as a new guitar - Same applies to most imported goods - Yet sod all we can do about it - With import duty and vat, Mrs Mat and co will take around 25% of the proceeds of the sale of that shiny new Gibbo

Genuine question, we have a lot of luthiers and makers here on the forum, why don't they/haven't they take(n) the step up from being a mini custom shop to making a decent production line guitar (maybe even not something that's basically a copy of a Fender or Gibson design) for £1000-£1500?

Is the fault in the stores for not wanting to stock, the simple economics of the UK market...?

Just a point - do you realise how cheap you would have to build a guitar to let it sell in a RETAIL store for £1000-£1500

Take off VAT (So from £167 to £250)
Take off retailers margin

You have to make a guitar in a price range from £540 going up to £800

You still have to afford staff wages and the overheads of running a factory

Electric guitars have quite expensive parts with all the hardware and electronics 

So you will be scraping around looking for chinese made parts because it's all you can afford

And frankly as a player if I looked at guitar made cheaply with chinese cheap parts, there isn't enough flag waving patriotism in me to consider it as better buy than a fully chinese made guitar for half the same retail price

Heck if it were down to me as a PLAYER (choosing within that budget range) I would buy the imported guitar and put a few hundred quid aside to take it to somewhere like @FelineGuitars ; and have it fret dressed, set up and maybe consider some upgrades.

crunchman

Guitar Guitar have a few Crimson guitars in stock starting from £1599.  They are oil finished though.  You could add another £250, maybe more, to that for a nice gloss finish.  I think that is the economics of making a guitar in the UK.

If you don't want the gloss finish, then a PRS S2 Satin is around £600 less.  If you did add a gloss finish, then you are going to be more than most US Fenders, and in the same ball park as a Les Paul Traditional.  Most of us will spend our money on the name brands.

To compete price wise with those name brands, you would expensive automated machinery and big economies of scale.  Realistically, you would have to be producing thousands of guitars per year. That's a huge step up from a small company prducing a couple of hundred with 3 or 4 guys.

darthed1981

FelineGuitars said:

Just a point - do you realise how cheap you would have to build a guitar to let it sell in a RETAIL store for £1000-£1500...

You have to make a guitar in a price range from £540 going up to £800

...

And frankly as a player if I looked at guitar made cheaply with chinese cheap parts, there isn't enough flag waving patriotism in me to consider it as better buy than a fully chinese made guitar for half the same retail price

Heck if it were down to me as a PLAYER (choosing within that budget range) I would buy the imported guitar and put a few hundred quid aside to take it to somewhere like @FelineGuitars ; and have it fret dressed, set up and maybe consider some upgrades.

Thanks for adding some more thoughts

I am aware of the economies involved yes.

I guess guitars are one of many things where the margins would never justify the cost and investment of mass manufacturing in the UK.

Shame though.