Harley the first of many? Trade tarrif gaff?

stickyfiddle

Freebird said:

stickyfiddle said:

Freebird said:

stickyfiddle said:

Freebird said:

It works both ways, on the other hand western workers will have to compete with cheap imported labour and against the Chinese sweatshop workers. That is the nature of globalisation where the corporations are the winners.

Western workers are already having to compete or adapt. It's why we have so many service-led industries in the west - no-one in China can make you an espresso in the morning.

Cheap labour streaming through open borders can.

As can skilled labour. Do I detect a suggestion that's a bad thing?

I'm not trying to suggest it's good or bad, just that it's definitely a thing and trying to pretend we can do anything to prevent the  marketplace from becoming an international one is foolhardy.

It's the reason why half of America voted for Trump.

Globalism is a race to the bottom, which the big corporations really like.

I agree it's why 62 million people voted for Trump (that's 19.5% of the population, not 50%). I have a lot of sympathy with those people and I do think they've been systematically let down by the US government. But they still are and the latest tariffs are going to make it worse for them, not better. 

But no amount of posturing and complaining and import tariffs will make India and China and Brazil and Turkey and Japan and Europe just not exist.  

Globalism is a fact of life. That's not to say the massive amounts of power yielded by global corporations isn't a problem - i'm quite sure it is, and i'm quite sure it's going to get worse before it gets better. But the way to make it better is not to click our heels together and wish for the 1950's when the foreigners just made cheap clothes and were otherwise invisible. It's to put sufficient controls in place (whether through legislation or taxation - on companies, not trade). And to be effective that will need to be done on a very large scale to have any impact. 

Modulus_Amps

Heartfeltdawn said:

And this is the difficult part for Trump and it's similar to the Brexiteers in the UK right now. When the like of Harley Davison make this decision, when the like of BMW and Airbus speak up about how a no-deal Brexit is damaging to them, it's very hard to make them out as bullshitting enemies.

BMW was already one foot out the country, 60% of parts are made in the EU according to the BBC, Brexit just forces them to acknowledge it, and if they do stay in the UK, maybe they will buy more parts in the UK too... I like to be hopeful

Modulus_Amps

Axe_meister said:

If the US introduced a minimum wage then foreign Labour and local Labour would at least be on the same playing field. If the locals can then not compete in skills it is their own fault.

If the EU introduced a minimum wage then we would probably not lost so much manufacturing in the UK and I would wager Brexit would not have happened either. If there was no one to exploit the the corporations would not be very happy

Cols

Trump on Harley Davidson, after they announced ramping up production overseas: "Surprised that Harley-Davidson, of all companies, would be the first to wave the White Flag, I fought hard for them and ultimately they will not pay tariffs selling into the E.U."

Trump on European car manufacturers: "Based on the Tariffs and Trade Barriers long placed on the U.S. and it great companies and workers by the European Union, if these Tariffs and Barriers are not soon broken down and removed, we will be placing a 20% Tariff on all of their cars coming into the U.S. Build them here!”

Can anyone spot the logical disconnect here?

ewal

Emp_Fab said:

...and of course, the petulant child of Pennsylvania Avenue responds by attacking them in a fucking tweet...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44610010

I can’t quite wrap my brain around how the world has almost normalised the fact that the President of the U.S.A. sends out adolescent rebukes, complete with name-calling, to anyone whom he perceives to have crossed him.

The guy has the emotional maturity of a nine year old, and I don’t mean that as an exaggerated insult - he really does have the emotional maturity of a nine year old.

....and he is in control of 4,000 active nuclear warheads.

Today I logged out of Twitter and Facebook because I can no longer normalise the social media world (of which he is the biggest offender). It was basically making me unwell. I'm going to concentrate on doing non-digital things for a while and see if I am happier with my own company. Might even look some friends up!

Think I'll only go back to Twitter if someone can assure me that regulations have been introduced to control the madness. Facebook is less mentally disorienting, but it brings out the worst in alot of people, including myself. I'm tired of the sharing impulse - going to enjoy keeping things to myself!

Dominic

Correct.......I am a Harley die-hard but you are spot-on
they do more business in T-shirts and Clothing than bikes.
Also a lot of component parts are now Chinese made irrespective of where the bike is assembled.
They promote their "Dark Custom" Engine Casings over the Chrome ones now because all the chrome work they get done on mezack monkey metal and not nickel undercoat is done in China and is shit quality which people want replaced under guarantee.
Do you realise a top of Range Harley CVO Ultra Tourer is £34,995 to buy  before a Stage 1 exhaust system for another £2000 is added ..........that's a very expensive Bike and would buy a great 2 year old car ............no wonder they find it hard to sell quantity and need to squeeze every bit of profit they can from a sale.

JezWynd

.

rsvmark

Gassage said:

Wow, a huge lack of knowledge re Harley by all media here.

Harley Davidson is now classed (and has been for many years) as a seller of gifts and retail fashion. 

Memorabillia makes up 65% of their world wide turnover, parts 10% and bikes 25%

So most of their products have been made overseas for years. Fact.

And their bikes are utter shit as well

Fretwired

Heartfeltdawn said:

And this is the difficult part for Trump and it's similar to the Brexiteers in the UK right now. When the like of Harley Davison make this decision, when the like of BMW and Airbus speak up about how a no-deal Brexit is damaging to them, it's very hard to make them out as bullshitting enemies. 

Lots of fake news about. Official statement from BMW earlier today:

BMW's UK boss has distanced himself from comments by the car maker's customs chief suggesting that the company could cease production in the UK as a result of Brexit.

Ian Robertson, BMW's special representative to the UK, painted a different picture of the company's future in the UK following comments from its customs chief Stephan Freismuth yesterday, appearing to say that delays at the border could lead to the German car maker ending production in the UK.

Mr Freismuth, a senior director at BMW, said: "If, at the end of the day, the supply chain will have a stop at the border, then we cannot produce our products in the UK."

But speaking at the car industry's annual summit in London, Mr Robertson said this did not mean that BMW would be abandoning its UK plants which employ 8,000 people.

"We are committed to our operation in the UK, our workforce here and the fact we sell 250,000 cars here," he said. "It’s not that we are turning our backs on the UK - we are not."

Mr Robertson, who is BMW's most senior executive in the UK, added: "We want to avoid the unnecessary impediments of adding cost to our equations... Our expert on customs said customers could interfere with production on hourly or daily basis, and that would be really unfortunate."

BMW's UK boss added that the company wants to be "as close to our customers as possible", noting the car maker has 30 plants around the world, "some of which are there for political or regulatory reasons".

BMW plan to build a parts warehouse in the UK to ensure production is not affected by a hard Brexit (we won't have a hard Brexit - just look at May. Soft, soft Brexit all the way).

I was at a Brexit debate last year  between two senior Tories and was told by a senior BMW guy that in the event of a hard Brexit they'd just make more stuff in the UK. Our market is too important. All this crap about factories closing are just lies.

Bridgehouse

rsvmark said:

Gassage said:

Wow, a huge lack of knowledge re Harley by all media here.

Harley Davidson is now classed (and has been for many years) as a seller of gifts and retail fashion. 

Memorabillia makes up 65% of their world wide turnover, parts 10% and bikes 25%

So most of their products have been made overseas for years. Fact.

And their bikes are utter shit as well

Came here to post this. Overpriced underperforming unreliable crap.

usedtobe

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/b088f72b-ad3d-4b07-bc66-fc4bec88c7da

Dominic

rsvmark said:

Gassage said:

Wow, a huge lack of knowledge re Harley by all media here.

Harley Davidson is now classed (and has been for many years) as a seller of gifts and retail fashion. 

Memorabillia makes up 65% of their world wide turnover, parts 10% and bikes 25%

So most of their products have been made overseas for years. Fact.

And their bikes are utter shit as well

No they are not shit ......they are a proper motorcycle .If you mean that they're not as fast as a plastic Rice Rocket then that is certainly true .Yes they are overpriced for sure and  more reliable than a Ducati .
American style cruiser motorbikes are not about performance ....
They are about Looks,comfort and style.
It's always funny how many people love to slag off a Harley until they actually spend some time with one or grow out of the pretend GP racer need for speed ........the eccentricities of the design become part of the joy.
And you don't need to dress up like a Power Ranger to ride one !

sweepy

My abiding memory of Harley's is helping an old Housemate rebuild and upgrade his Sportster. Apart from welding that looked though it was done by a blind person with Parkinson's and the wiring system of a pre war Austin with relays that failed if you have them a hard state, it had flaking pitted chrome and rode like s marshmallow with no sense of direction. After all that he still has it but bought a proper touring bike a BMW

Dominic

BMW is a great Touring bike but it's like shagging a big fat Ugly bird .........very comfortable at the time(if you close your eyes ) but you don't want to be seen walking down the street with it !
Seriously,they are characterless and boring and they are extremely ugly

axisus

Harley's are super cool. Nothing else matters.

Phil_aka_Pip

Cols said:

Trump on Harley Davidson, after they announced ramping up production overseas: "Surprised that Harley-Davidson, of all companies, would be the first to wave the White Flag, I fought hard for them and ultimately they will not pay tariffs selling into the E.U."

Trump on European car manufacturers: "Based on the Tariffs and Trade Barriers long placed on the U.S. and it great companies and workers by the European Union, if these Tariffs and Barriers are not soon broken down and removed, we will be placing a 20% Tariff on all of their cars coming into the U.S. Build them here!”

Can anyone spot the logical disconnect here?

Is there one? HD are trying to export their product, whereas BMW/Mercs built in the US are not intended for export they are for the home market.

Phil_aka_Pip

BTW HD *ARE* crap bikes. You want a bike that handles, goes round corners, performs reasonably well even if not intended to compete with the rice burners, is reliable and doesn't shake itself (or its rider) apart. HD fails on every important aspect with the possible exception of looks and even then they sometimes don't score that well.

JezWynd

Phil_aka_Pip said:

BTW HD *ARE* crap bikes. You want a bike that handles, goes round corners, performs reasonably well ...

America doesn't do corners...

p90fool

I'm not defending Harleys because the new ones are an ugly pastiche of what they used to be like, but sometimes you want a utilitarian, infinitely rebuildable old crate with a bit of soul, for which you can get parts going back to the war within a couple of days anywhere in the world, and will keep chugging along while you enjoy the scenery in a quite appalling state of disrepair. 

Granted that's not why most people buy them, but that's why I rode nothing else for decades. To say a Fireblade or whatever is "better" is to wilfully miss the point. It's only better at arse up, nose down, ignore your surroundings "sport". 

Phil_aka_Pip

American: "We couldn't find the freeway so we used a little back road called the M5"
Basil Fawlty; "I'm sorry our roads aren't wide enough for you, but English cars usually have steering wheels".