PA ~ ~ ~ what makes you smile, & what makes you think "oh, shit !"

What's Hot
ChrisMusicChrisMusic Frets: 1133
edited April 2014 in Live
Horses for courses, maybe.

What's great, what's just OK, and what makes you think "Oh, Shit ! - that's going to sound crap" ?

I am thinking about manufacturers / brands you can rely on for a good sound,
or great technology that works,
or choosing a good hire company for something a little, or a lot, bigger.


If you are just choosing your own gear, what's good or what to avoid ?

If it is a venue installation, whatever the size, what makes you think either, "this is going to be a cracking night" or that is a demoralising POS, what am I doing here ?

And onto pro sound hire, what is recognised as the best in PA right now, and what should you avoid ?  How about the middle ground?

0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
«1

Comments

  • IanSavageIanSavage Frets: 1319

    To answer the latter:

    Anything that's bought out from a cupboard behind the bar (yes, this happened, in a 'venue' which we'd been assured 'had a 4kW PA with monitors').

    Anything with 'Phonic', 'Soundlab', 'Skytec' or 'Alto' written on it (and pretty much anything powered with 'Behringer' on it, especially if the venue has professional pretensions).

    Personally I still prefer old-fashioned power amps with big ol' transformers, but very aware that the lightweight Class D stuff is very much getting better all the time - I've still got an affinity for field-proven UK and US-made stuff like QSC, Studiomaster, Crown, Crest, C-Audio, some Peavey etc etc etc, although the older Italian-made Mackie SRM450s and a fair few variations thereof have pushed me towards powered speakers for 'own gear' as opposed to installations (ALWAYS with the big heavy iron for installs :) ).


    I'm kind of out-of-touch with pro sound hire these days, although it appears from working a few festivals that whilst modern digital desks are very much 'in', not so much modern lightweight power amps (massive racks of multi-band power still very much evident).

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • ESBlondeESBlonde Frets: 3576
    edited April 2014
    With the exception of some Peavey, soundcraft and a few bits of Mackie, pretty much anything found in a 'music shop' is a bad sign.

    Something that looks like it was a considered option rather than left over from the 70s. Power is king (headroom) processing is nice (dynamic and Eq).

    Broken anything is off putting, you just know if you see that first, then more and more will come to your attention as you try to clean up the signal chain.

    Knowledgeable local crew is a big plus especially if they get excited about providing what you require (require rather than want).

    Modern equipment is nice, stuff like HK, Yorkville, Db, Ev, can be made to sound good, in fact it's often pre tuned to sound good in most venues without additional Eq or processing.

    I agree with Ian about Big Iron transformers in power amps that do the low end, I'm generally happy with digital switching power supplies for everything else.


    The single most important thing is knowing what the hell you are doing, just putting things where they look nice and twiddling knobs is a recipe for poor sound. Read up and empower yourself.


    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357
    I try and avoid  stuff like Behringer, alto, anything with "Pro" in the title like Prosound etc :) 

    Pro sound hire is a matter of budget. At the top end you have boxs from brands like Meyer, Martin, Turbosound etc for touring acts, the end I deal in is more HK, QSC, EV which cost between 4 and 10K per PA but give years of high quality sound and have long warranties so the cost of a £5000 HK rig is only about £20 per week over the 5 years it's warrantied for. Everything is class D now, it's efficient, light and the internal processors protect the drivers far more than any external crossover ever could

    All the desks are digital now as it's become so affordable over the last 5 years. Something like the Allen & Heath QU16 gives you 22 channels all with dynamics and digital EQ, 4 high quality effects units, multitrack recording via USB, 10 aux sends,  wireless mix ability via iPad and full recall of everything including faders and pre fader gain for £1600. To get that in the analog world you would need to spend about 5K. Other good desks in this range are the Presonus Studiolive, The Soundcraft Si and for cheapness the little Mackie DL1608 
    If anyone's buying a desk now don't buy an analog one, have a look at digital first
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • ElectroDanElectroDan Frets: 554

    I've always liked nexo PS15's. Perfect to use for monitors or front speakers.

    Dynacord desk's sound great and easy to get into for live bands. Two different fx to use.

    As for amps the Powersoft are superb! Not cheap. But reliable bags of power and LIGHT! Seriously, I think the 20kW one is around 12kg. If you've got a strong back or a road crew, maybe the Crown Macrotech instead. (Always funny watching someone trying to pick one of those up off the floor for the first time. The big 5k one is monstrously heavy!)

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • GIJoeGIJoe Frets: 213
    Behringer get a bad rep but their X32 digital desk is superb!

    "Nobody is really researching robot jokes"

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • What makes me happy is to see a band bring in what they need to do a gig at a particular venue.
    Peavey do some great stuff that rivals a lot of more expensive gear, they also do the cheap stuff for low cost as well. But no matter what they do it's well priced for value. 
    I love my RCFs, prefer my old EV rig for outdoor big gigs etc where you need the throw, but small pub gigs, the RCFs are hard to beat for the money.
    0reaction image LOL 1reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • citizen68citizen68 Frets: 172
    What makes me smile is other bands PAs - what makes me think 'oh shit' is our crappy speakers - eyeing up rcf 15's as an upgrade atm
    Seemed like a good idea.....

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • citizen68citizen68 Frets: 172
    edited April 2014
    Edit - double post - lovely phone!
    Seemed like a good idea.....

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • Good professional crew is the single most important thing when being supplied a PA 

    Other than that what Danny said. 

    Thing is everything has the ability to fail its how you deal with that failure that makes or breaks the show
    www.maltingsaudio.co.uk
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • MikkiMcMurdererMikkiMcMurderer Frets: 352
    edited April 2014
    This thread Is funny, I just got told we had to use the house PA at this weekends wedding gig. When I asked the venue for details of what it was, they replied that it was an Alko Elvis! I thought that was a drinking game but sadly no, just a typo for Alto Elvis speakers - nasty business. I think we'll be using our QSC K rig somehow!!!!
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    edited April 2014
    This thread Is funny, I just got told we had to use the house PA at this weekends wedding gig. When I asked the venue for details of what it was, they replied that it was an Alko Elvis! I thought that was a drinking game but sadly no, just a typo for Alto Elvis speakers - nasty business. I think we'll be using our QSC K rig somehow!!!!
    No reason you can't use the house PA.

























    They'll never hear it over the top of yours and your backline, of course.

    ;)



    I've actually found that method useful in the past - in places where the 'house PA' is the DJ system with wall/ceiling-mounted speakers all around the venue, it does actually let you get a better dispersed sound into the far corners without quite as much level at the stage. Take a single aux send from you desk to the house PA and treat it as an extra monitor mix, and it's not much more work.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • GIJoe said:
    Behringer get a bad rep but their X32 digital desk is superb!

    I find the attitude that all Behringer gear is crap really tiresome.  You see plenty of examples of people new to recording posting on internet forums asking for advice within a limited budget and saying "I was thinking of this by Behringer?" and straight away get bombarded with negative responses dictating how if it says Behringer on it it must be shit.

    I have worked in various commercial studios and my own for most of my adult life.  When you learn to not become dependent of your safety net of 'this preamp' and 'these settings' you realise that most negativity to a lot of gear of any type is poor application by the users.  People pushing gear beyond it's capabilities and expecting a magic wand to polish a turd.  It's like the equivalent of wanting a Fender DRRI to give you it's sparkling cleans and then dirt like a Mesa Dual.  Of course there are also crap bits of gear with a multitude of makers names on.

    About 8 years ago I was sent a Behringer UB2222FX desk.  I will freely admit that I would never have gone out and bought it myself - really as I had what I needed at the time.  I would also add the caveat that the UB2222FX is supposed to be a bit of a flagship for Behringer apparently overseen by Uli Behringer personally.  Anyway I was really pleasantly surprised.  It has since been flight cased and I used it when I need something mobile and in less than ideal conditions where I wouldn't want to risk something more expensive.  The desk is pretty robust, the preamps very good and very quiet.   The built in effects are shit but then I have never liked desks with inbuilt effects.

    Another piece of Behringer gear that puzzles me in the negativity it gets is the VX2000 Ultravoice.  It is well known to be a clone of the Focusrite Platinum Voicemaster.  Side by side tests have be done aplenty on the internet with virtually all claiming no audible difference yet the Focusrite get rave review and great value for money, yet the half the price Behringer gets slated.  I am aware that a portion of this is the fact people seem to gets the arse ache that Behringer have cloned a dearer unit, but is that not exactly what happens with companies like Mooer and is well received.

    If you had unlimited funds would most Behringer gear rank amongst your first choice?  No.  But a good amount is perfectly serviceable gear that can give really good results (if used correctly and within it's limits) for those on a tighter or more realistic budget.

    My muse is not a horse and art is not a race.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 2reaction image Wisdom
  • GIJoeGIJoe Frets: 213

    I find the attitude that all Behringer gear is crap really tiresome.  You see plenty of examples of people new to recording posting on internet forums asking for advice within a limited budget and saying "I was thinking of this by Behringer?" and straight away get bombarded with negative responses dictating how if it says Behringer on it it must be shit.

    I have worked in various commercial studios and my own for most of my adult life.  When you learn to not become dependent of your safety net of 'this preamp' and 'these settings' you realise that most negativity to a lot of gear of any type is poor application by the users.  People pushing gear beyond it's capabilities and expecting a magic wand to polish a turd.  It's like the equivalent of wanting a Fender DRRI to give you it's sparkling cleans and then dirt like a Mesa Dual.  Of course there are also crap bits of gear with a multitude of makers names on.

    About 8 years ago I was sent a Behringer UB2222FX desk.  I will freely admit that I would never have gone out and bought it myself - really as I had what I needed at the time.  I would also add the caveat that the UB2222FX is supposed to be a bit of a flagship for Behringer apparently overseen by Uli Behringer personally.  Anyway I was really pleasantly surprised.  It has since been flight cased and I used it when I need something mobile and in less than ideal conditions where I wouldn't want to risk something more expensive.  The desk is pretty robust, the preamps very good and very quiet.   The built in effects are shit but then I have never liked desks with inbuilt effects.

    Another piece of Behringer gear that puzzles me in the negativity it gets is the VX2000 Ultravoice.  It is well known to be a clone of the Focusrite Platinum Voicemaster.  Side by side tests have be done aplenty on the internet with virtually all claiming no audible difference yet the Focusrite get rave review and great value for money, yet the half the price Behringer gets slated.  I am aware that a portion of this is the fact people seem to gets the arse ache that Behringer have cloned a dearer unit, but is that not exactly what happens with companies like Mooer and is well received.

    If you had unlimited funds would most Behringer gear rank amongst your first choice?  No.  But a good amount is perfectly serviceable gear that can give really good results (if used correctly and within it's limits) for those on a tighter or more realistic budget.

    Nice one.

    As I say their X32 is very impressive - their new era of not just cloning things but doing research and development to end up with a great piece of kit - when it came out it won an award (for ease of use I think) beating the latest Digico (~£100 000).

    I think some of their pedals are pretty poor (the plastic boss style), very cheap and hissy.

    I have used a few of their smaller desks for sub-mixing keys etc and they are pretty decent.

    I'm hoping to pick up some of their IEM hardwired packs (Powerplay P1) when they 'launch'.

    "Nobody is really researching robot jokes"

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357

    I have one piece of Behringer in my studio which is the ADA8000, is does a good job converting ADAT to analog. Especially for the price. Trouble is I had to buy 3 before I got a reliable one. First one had output, second one was completely DOA, third one worked and has worked fine for 6 years now. 

    Their mixing desks are terrible, the switch mode power supply design is awful and is very likely to go wrong. I have 2 in for repair at the mo, both power supply faults. 

    The X32 for the money was impressive until the A+H QU came out


    www.2020studios.co.uk 
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • PolarityManPolarityMan Frets: 7273
    In my experience if you check out the racks in most studios and music venues you're almost guaranteed to see "something" behringer. I see more and more rehearsal rooms going with powered behringer tops for vocal PA as well. 
    ဈǝᴉʇsɐoʇǝsǝǝɥɔဪቌ
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • ESBlondeESBlonde Frets: 3576
    Behringer is largely copied from other reputable makers although some items seem unique. Also the circuits are made down to a price and some nice to have parts are missing (like mumetal cans to shield the DI boxs and quality audio transformers). The circuit boards are made in one piece including sockets and knobs which strains the boards on some items (but is cheaper). They use SMT which precludes any repairer even looking at it economically, so they are regarded as disposable.
    Behringer dealers expect a certain amount of DOA units which they switch out readily, with electronics they tend to die quickly or last a good while (if not abused) so the stuff can work out decent value for you budget system, but if you earn your living from music don't rely on behringer in a key application.
    I have owned a number of Behringer units and still own some now, I have had a number of throw away items once they died and two DOA units swapped by the dealer.
    Like I said just avoid critical applications (like a mixer on the road or crossover you can't bypass).

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • GIJoe said:
    Behringer get a bad rep but their X32 digital desk is superb!


    If you had unlimited funds would most Behringer gear rank amongst your first choice?  No.  But a good amount is perfectly serviceable gear that can give really good results (if used correctly and within it's limits) for those on a tighter or more realistic budget.

    As random says if you have unlimited funds you wouldn't necessarily buy behringer its the same with any tools if you want them to last a life time you pay the price if its a one off job then you can contemplate cheap.  years ago I bought an 8 way di from behringer because i needed it for one job with the view to skipping it when it failed, it hasn't yet but I don't use it because my other Di's Orchids and LA Audio sound so much better.

    As to X32 there is no doubt its a game changer in that for the first time it brought all the bells and whistles you thought you needed down to an affordable price. Its sold very well and because of this has been percieved to be a superb bit of kit. I would add to this "at the price" and has kick started the second digital desk revolution. Does it compare well to high end digi desks in quality and longevity thats for you to decide.

    Personally I'll stick with Allen and Heath
    www.maltingsaudio.co.uk
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • GIJoeGIJoe Frets: 213
    As random says if you have unlimited funds you wouldn't necessarily buy behringer its the same with any tools if you want them to last a life time you pay the price if its a one off job then you can contemplate cheap.  years ago I bought an 8 way di from behringer because i needed it for one job with the view to skipping it when it failed, it hasn't yet but I don't use it because my other Di's Orchids and LA Audio sound so much better.

    As to X32 there is no doubt its a game changer in that for the first time it brought all the bells and whistles you thought you needed down to an affordable price. Its sold very well and because of this has been percieved to be a superb bit of kit. I would add to this "at the price" and has kick started the second digital desk revolution. Does it compare well to high end digi desks in quality and longevity thats for you to decide.

    Personally I'll stick with Allen and Heath
    It is not perceived as a great piece of kit - it is!

    Have you used one?  I know A+H make some great stuff, and Digico and Midas are sublime, but a Digico desk is what £100 000 new?  £25000 + second hand?

    At that price you would expect it to be the best, hundreds of channels and processing etc.

    My church recently purchased an X32 - we needed at least 8 sends for stereo IEMS, with more for future expansion.  The only way we could get that was with the X32.  Other alternatives were a second hand Midas or A+H Analogue desk, which were slightly above budget and much bigger.

    You say at the price, but I personally think it is a lot better than most less than £10000, some people say that it is much better than the Yamaha LS9 (I cannot comment).

    It seems people are still put off by the name, although Behringer bought Midas and klark teknik to design it...

    "Nobody is really researching robot jokes"

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • @gijoe I think you missed my point and yes have used one along with most of the others you mentioned. As you said your church got a great tool to sort out their needs at the right price. I would add its easior to use than the LS9 and the pre's sound nicer but the LS9 is 10 year old technology and long over due a rehash.

    My point is that looking at it in isolation it appears to be great and as such has had great success and maybe helped to change the perception of Behringer. Looking at it in the market place and from a professional user and specifiers point of view is a different thing  
    www.maltingsaudio.co.uk
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • GIJoeGIJoe Frets: 213
    @maltingsaudio Sorry that seemed a bit of a rant - it's not!

    Yes I agree, I think it's ace, but in terms of high end, pro audio/rentals/massive channel count I don't think that is the market it is aiming for.

    "Nobody is really researching robot jokes"

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
Sign In or Register to comment.