Patriotism

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  • KilgoreKilgore Frets: 1393
    It's important to point out that British history is characterised by evolution rather than revolution. Although we have 'stand out' historical events. 1066, Civil War, WWi and II. We don't have a specific event that we use to define ourselves.

    Of course the US has it's revolution and subsequent creation of the US Constitution and State. All Americans can identify with these events. There's nothing wrong with this except that for most of US history the reality was replaced by a national 'myth'. The US was founded for wealthy white landowners, not for everybody.

    It still seems to be the case that those not prepared to subscribe to the myth are still often accused of being un-patriotic or un-American.

    You only have to look at Russia to see what happens when the state attempts to encourage a greater degree of patriotic fervour...

    The rehabilitation of Stalin.


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  • LuttiSLuttiS Frets: 1092
    Britain's all about patriotism...

    Just think back to the royal wedding when finally, we had a nation to be proud of, everyone, got out the key to their lock box hidden under the floorboards and got out their union jack bunting and hung it up while they had their crumpets and victory gin.

    "Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother Britain."
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  • The problem with he US-style, Disneyfied version of patriotism is the notion of some kind of inherent superiority over people of other nations. People believing that they are somehow 'better' than citizens of other countries purely because of where they happen to have been born. Patriotism taken that far is a bit of a nonsense when you stop and think about it for two seconds.

    I once heard a psychologist explain her idea of 'healthy patriotism', making a strong analogy to general mental health and a sense of self-worth. The basic gist:

    Loving oneself and thinking you're brilliant without being able to acknowledge or attempt to deal with your faults and errors of your ways is not healthy - ie Narcissism. Blind patriotism - devotion to your country no matter what, and being unwilling to recognise the sins and crimes committed under the flag (past and present) is unhealthy, 'narcissistic' Patriotism.

    Being consumed with all your faults, and with the 'sins of the father' (so to speak), and being persistently wracked with guilt is not good for mental health - essentially a fast-track to anxiety and depression. Being persistently ashamed of your country and only being able to focus on its faults - especially guilt for things that happened centuries ago - is not a healthy way to view your country and appreciate your place in the world.

    Good mental health and a good sense of self-worth relies on being proud of who you are and what your strengths are, whilst also being able to recognise and attempt to rectify and come to terms with your faults and those of your forebears. It also relies on a healthy respect for the worth and qualities of everyone we come into contact with.

    Healthy patriotism is about being proud of everything great about your country (past and present), while also recognising and trying to come to terms with the crimes and errors of ours and previous generations. And it is also about recognising equality with people of other nations and respecting their qualities and cultures.

    I'm a proud Mackem, a proud Englishman, a proud Brit, proud EU-citizen and proud citizen of the world. I'm immensely proud of all the great things about our culture, past and present - our contributions to great literature, art, science, politics, our multi-cultural melting pot, and the general warmth of quality of our people. However I also recognise, attempt to come to terms with, and try to learn from the very many appalling crimes committed under the British flag both in the past and present. And I also don't believe we are somehow 'special' or better than people of other nations due to the fluke of where I happen to have been born.

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  • Oh, and COME ON ENGLAND!!!!!! =)
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  • MattBansheeMattBanshee Frets: 733
    edited July 11
    The UK doesn't have a problem with a lack of patriotism. The USA has a problem with fascism.
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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 9097
    Without getting into too much of an in depth sociological analysis, I've never encountered anyone who has bulldogs, spitfires or Union Jacks emblazoned over their social media profile pics with an IQ of more than about 90.

    It's just not for me, or anyone I know really. 
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  • HaychHaych Frets: 582
    I really don't understand the American patriotism thing.  I have no problem with anyone being proud of where they come from but American patriotism is bordering on fanatical and dangerous, and besides all else is just a bit daft.

    I've been to America a few times, I have many good friends who live there and I was married to a US national for many years.  It doesn't make my opinion more valid and I probably don't have any more insight into the subject than anyone else but it's given me a personal perspective.

    God bless America?  Really?  Why?  Assuming the majority of Americans believe in God, what makes America so special?  If God exists, why would he choose America over any other country?  And yet an American patriot believes America has God's blessing.

    It also seems to me, and I might be wrong, that in the eyes of many Americans (not all), America can do no wrong, and if you dare say that the good old USA is as flawed as any other country you're anti-American, a traitor or a communist.

    Mental, just mental.

    I don't think a true Brit is any less patriotic, we're just a bit more measured about it.  We don't need the fanfare that the US seems to crave.  I think the average Brit's response to "God bless America" would be "Yeah, alright, mate" while rolling eyes and with a wry smile.

    We're just a bit more grown up.  America with its self important rhetoric is like a pre-teen child who has just learned a new and unfathomably complicated word and feels the need to include it in every sentence.  



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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 17674
    edited July 11

    VimFuego said:

    the idea of the nation state is a complete fiction, it's not real. People are real, they are the important bit, not the flag.
    I agree to a point .. sadly history has shown that people will follow a rag on a pole. The Scots who want independence rally around the Saltire, the EDL rally around the Cross of St George. Both flags are potent symbols .... watch the England game on TV tonight .. flags everywhere .. English and Croatian.

    The Stars and Stripes and the Union Jack are probably the most recognisable flags around the world. The Union Jack even became a trendy brand emblazoned on T-shirts and bags across the globe. To some people around the world the  Union Jack represents oppression and evil crimes during days of Empire and to others cool culture, great music and freedom. So flags do matter - they do evoke emotions.

    The problem with patriotism is where it ultimately leads .. Trump uses it all the time and so far has had some success in building dialogue with rogue states but in pitching the trade war with China as a patriotic struggle (America first) he risks war with another super power.


    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • VimFuegoVimFuego Frets: 6275
    I think that my point was, people shouldn't worship the flag, the flag should worship the people. The state should exist to serve the people, when the people serve the state it's no different to feudalism.

    I accept that this is an idealistic position and doesn't reflect reality, but sometimes reality can go suck a large one as far as I'm concerned. 

    I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.

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  • ChuckManualChuckManual Frets: 459
    Nationality is just an accident of birth.  Patriotism is merely supine worship of that accident.

    It's brainless and it's horse shit - but mostly it's a zero sum game.

    Yes, we invented; parliamentary democracy, clean drinking water for the masses and television - but we also invented; Apartheid, concentration camps ...and television.
    Not much of the gear, even less idea.
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  • DarnWeightDarnWeight Frets: 944
    Wolfetone said:

    Am I wrong or should I just become an American and be done with it? 
    Yes, and yes.
    New fangled trading feedback link right here!
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11741
    Wolfetone said:
    I have been to the US four times this year. The outstanding feature of the States is the patriotism of its people and I would go so far to say that there is no more a patriotic nation than America. The flag is omnipresent and revered. The military and police are thanked for their service and given priority treatment in most places. 


    You'll spontaneously ejaculate when you go to North Korea then. 
    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • PhiltrePhiltre Frets: 787
    Wolfetone said:
    I have been to the US four times this year. The outstanding feature of the States is the patriotism of its people and I would go so far to say that there is no more a patriotic nation than America. The flag is omnipresent and revered. The military and police are thanked for their service and given priority treatment in most places. 


    You'll spontaneously ejaculate when you go to North Korea then. 
    :-)

    /thread
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  • JezWyndJezWynd Frets: 2571
    Can't think of another country that has so defined itself by its cinema.

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  • KilgoreKilgore Frets: 1393
    If an advanced civilisation stumbled across earth and witnessed this single species organising itself on the basis of imaginary borders, they would piss themselves laughing and bugger off home.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 33704
    JezWynd said:
    Can't think of another country that has so defined itself by its cinema.
    That's a very good observation, and the result is that it's become its own mythology.

    There's a shoot-out at the end and the good guys win...
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • CirrusCirrus Frets: 3580
    On American patriotism... I think it's pretty weird. The idea that children are effectively indoctrinated in school, with the pledge of allegiance recited regularly... it just seems creepy to me, and an obvious form of control. I think British culture is much more cynical and dare I say even critical of that kind of state propaganda, maybe that's one of the reasons our class system is much more overt than the American one - there's no point trying to dress it up, because we'd see through it. In the states there's a very strong class system but the Steinbeck line about everyone being "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" rings true to me - the working class are sold the American dream and believe in it, that despite all the evidence against it America truly is a meritocracy where hard work pays off and anyone can make it.

    In Britain, our society is very old, our state institutions have the implicit authority and respect that centuries of continuity give them. So maybe they simply don't require such overt displays of unity and methods of indoctrination. We can afford to be glib and cynical because they are secure.

    re; the OP suggesting that we should shame people who aren't Patriotic... that's so stupid a suggestion I assume you only put it in there to generate some controversy and get the conversation moving. Hats off to you sir, you have succeeded.
    Captain Horizon (my old band);
    Very (!) Occasional Blog
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  • merlinmerlin Frets: 1542
    edited July 11
    Patriotism is defined as National Pride. Pride is one of the Seven Deadly Sins.
    We need to evolve sharpish, or we is (to quote the great man) fucked.

    Sorry to be so blunt and short but to be brutally honest, patriotism scares the shit out of me. 
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 17674
    Nationality is just an accident of birth.  Patriotism is merely supine worship of that accident.

    It's brainless and it's horse shit - but mostly it's a zero sum game.

    Yes, we invented; parliamentary democracy, clean drinking water for the masses and television - but we also invented; Apartheid, concentration camps ...and television.
    With respect the UK didn't invent apartheid (segregation by race) or concentration camps. In the modern era you have to look to the USA for both.

    Apartheid was introduced into an independent South Africa by the Afrikaner government. Britain gave SA independence in 1931.


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  • EricTheWearyEricTheWeary Frets: 7370
    I do feel some importance in where I come from and where I live. I find it interesting that I have some explanation of the world around me, I can relate my tiny patch of land to King John, Henry VIII, the industrial revolution and the last forty years of local authority planning policies ( there may have been some other stuff inbetween these). It’s nice to find points of shared experience and interest with other people - following the fortunes of England in the World Cup for example. 

    But I understand there is nothing inherently superior in any of this compared to my equivalent in small town Germany or small town Kenya, and much of what I value has little to do with the British establishment so I'm not sure I have any sense of patriotism. 


    Dum dum dum, dum dum de dum, dum dum dum, dum dummmm.
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  • westwest Frets: 353
    Half them wild west hero's wos frum daan the lye dudley and walsall ;)  ..... https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/nostalgia/gunfight-ok-corral-result-black-9721004

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  • EricTheWearyEricTheWeary Frets: 7370

    TOP 10 BLACK COUNTRY WESTERNS

    1. Lye Noon

    2. Blazing Saddlers

    3. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Our Kid

    4. Dancing With Wolves

    5. No Country for Oldbury Men

    6. Bad Day At Blackheath

    7. A Fist Full Of Scratchings

    8. Once Upon A Time in the West Midlands

    9. Hang Em High Bullen

    10. High Arcal Plains Drifter


    Brilliant ! Thanks @west ; enjoyed that link. There's still a very high probability of getting shot by someone from Lye to this day.

    Dum dum dum, dum dum de dum, dum dum dum, dum dummmm.
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  • westwest Frets: 353
    yep and if you know valley road you could see why lol ,  buffalow bill cody was robbed in dudley i larfed ....
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 17674

    TOP 10 BLACK COUNTRY WESTERNS

    1. Lye Noon

    2. Blazing Saddlers

    3. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Our Kid

    4. Dancing With Wolves

    5. No Country for Oldbury Men

    6. Bad Day At Blackheath

    7. A Fist Full Of Scratchings

    8. Once Upon A Time in the West Midlands

    9. Hang Em High Bullen

    10. High Arcal Plains Drifter


    Brilliant ! Thanks @west ; enjoyed that link. There's still a very high probability of getting shot by someone from Lye to this day.

    You left out Black country, How the West (Brom) was won, 3:10 to Dudley, Wild wild West Bromwich ..
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • darthed1981darthed1981 Frets: 2350
    Surely, patriotism, like other "faiths" can be used for good or bad things, depending upon who uses it, and for what.

    Pride in those around you, respect for their abilities and their diverse opinions and backgrounds, united around a common event or piece of history (for example, England's current World Cup campaign) can be a very positive thing, bringing a sense of happiness, togetherness etc.

    Negatively, it can be identified with race, or a particular set of cultural values that cannot be realistically applied to any group of people large enough to be a modern nation, or worse still identified with negative behaviour (I'm English and we won the football so I'll drink beyond the point of self-control and smash up an ambulance)...

    A knowledge of Britain's history provides a very interesting perspective.  We can be very proud of our behaviour during WW2 for the most part, but we did carpet bomb German cities full of women and children.  Churchill as an individual provided a focal point without which the free world would have had a much more difficult time defeating the Nazis, but his lowest ever point (personally refusing to divert shipping to alleviate the Indian famine) happened in the same period.

    Still, my union jack guitar still indicates I'm proud to be British, but I'd never consider that "pride" blind or devotional.
    Warning: this post may contain overtly affectionate references to Mary Spender
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  • EricTheWearyEricTheWeary Frets: 7370
    Fretwired said:

    TOP 10 BLACK COUNTRY WESTERNS

    1. Lye Noon

    2. Blazing Saddlers

    3. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Our Kid

    4. Dancing With Wolves

    5. No Country for Oldbury Men

    6. Bad Day At Blackheath

    7. A Fist Full Of Scratchings

    8. Once Upon A Time in the West Midlands

    9. Hang Em High Bullen

    10. High Arcal Plains Drifter


    Brilliant ! Thanks @west ;; enjoyed that link. There's still a very high probability of getting shot by someone from Lye to this day.

    You left out Black country, How the West (Brom) was won, 3:10 to Dudley, Wild wild West Bromwich ..
    The Good, the Bad and the Baggies? 


    Dum dum dum, dum dum de dum, dum dum dum, dum dummmm.
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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2386
    edited July 11
    Kilgore said:

    You only have to look at Russia to see what happens when the state attempts to encourage a greater degree of patriotic fervour...

    The rehabilitation of Stalin.

    That isn't really true in my opinion. Leftist doctines (like Marxism) tend to be diametircally opposed to nationlism ("the workers have no country"). Where nationalism gives people a sense of belonging and caring, so strong, people are willing to fight and die for strangers, to preserve a way of life, Russia initally went the other way with Marxism. 

    Stalin realised that the only way that the the USSR would be able to stand up to Germany was by ressurecting nationalism (hence the Great Patriotic War).
    Nationality is just an accident of birth.  Patriotism is merely supine worship of that accident.

    It's brainless and it's horse shit - but mostly it's a zero sum game.

    Yes, we invented; parliamentary democracy, clean drinking water for the masses and television - but we also invented; Apartheid, concentration camps ...and television.
    Yeah, we didn't really invent concentration camps, not in the way that the term is typically used (as extermination camps). 

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  • thecolourboxthecolourbox Frets: 3376
    Fretwired said:

    TOP 10 BLACK COUNTRY WESTERNS

    1. Lye Noon

    2. Blazing Saddlers

    3. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Our Kid

    4. Dancing With Wolves

    5. No Country for Oldbury Men

    6. Bad Day At Blackheath

    7. A Fist Full Of Scratchings

    8. Once Upon A Time in the West Midlands

    9. Hang Em High Bullen

    10. High Arcal Plains Drifter


    Brilliant ! Thanks @west ;; enjoyed that link. There's still a very high probability of getting shot by someone from Lye to this day.

    You left out Black country, How the West (Brom) was won, 3:10 to Dudley, Wild wild West Bromwich ..
    The Good, the Bad and the Baggies? 


    Or The Good, The Bad, and the Dudley

    Water, come drown me, I'm done

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  • ewalewal Frets: 790
    I have an instinctive aversion to over-enthusiastic tribalism in all its forms, including basic bigotry, racism, inter-estate/town gang fights, inter religion conflict, nationalism, football 'ultras', etc, etc.I don't like uniforms or any form or icon designed to unite and represent any particular tribe, for example flags, football scarves, badges, crosses, tattoos, etc.. I also don't like ceremonies where there is an expectation of how to behave or dress. Obviously patriotism is not really for me...

    I'm not sure why this is but life experience/nurture obviously plays a big part. Fear of being beaten up for being from the wrong part of town. Seeing Orange walks first hand and seeing the hatred they bred. Seeing war after war after war and the needless deaths of millions on the news (because of the accident of birth place). I can't look at patriotism and separate it from all the negative consequences of our tribal instinct.

    I'm basically a big quivering libtard snowflake...


    The Scrambler-EE Walk soundcloud experience
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  • ewalewal Frets: 790
    The UK doesn't have a problem with a lack of patriotism. The USA has a problem with fascism.
    Oh c'mon now. Cut them a bit of slack given that they are having to endure the presidency of a wannabe demagogue. Let's call it proto-fascism.
    The Scrambler-EE Walk soundcloud experience
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