various strat pickups - are they really that different?

axisus

I was looking at the Bare knuckle website and they have 10 different Strat sets. I can't believe that if I played them all I would think that they all have noticeably different characteristics but still sound stratty? (although obviously you can have some different sounds). 

Is there an element of the emperors clothes about pickups? Do you need Eric Johnson's ears to appreciate the difference?

I only play quietly at home so I don't really know about pickups at volume, but I've never been 'that' convinced about expensive pickups. 

https://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk/pickups/strat

thegummy

They have demos of all their pickups on their website that you can listen to and get some idea if you think they sound different.

A problem with that, though, is that 2 recordings will sound different any way even with the same pickups. You really need to try them for a while to hear if you notice the difference but obviously that's not a realistic option for most people.

Generally the range will include a low wound version for each magnet type, a medium and a high wound.

If you've ever changed a pickup (one humbucker for another, for example) you'll know if you found that to sound different or not.

From my fairly limited experience (I have played the same guitar with different pickups of the same type, but only a handful of examples) I fully believe they sound quite a bit different to each other. It's impossible to rule out the placebo effect though.

baldy

I have changed a few pickup sets now swapping the stock pups that came with cheap guitars Epiphone, Yamaha & Rockburn (please don"laugh) for "budget" pups from Vanson & Entwhistle & have heard massive differences/improvements.
This is only at home practice volumes though.

smigeon

I find that music gear, including pickups, that I like the sound of playing at home, I don’t necessarily like when playing at volume in a band. And very much vice versa.

And I also find that differences between pickups become more obvious (and clarify to me where I stand on the like/dislike spectrum) when playing at volume rather than in the house. 

richardhomer

I think all ‘vintage’ style Strat pick-ups are - assuming decent materials/construction - variations on a theme. While there will be some tonal variety among them, most amps allow you to vary the tone as well.

I’m not suggesting an upgrade isn’t worthwhile in some cases - but it is possible to throw a lot of money at a problem which doesn’t really exist.

Funkfingers

The thing is to match the characteristics of a each pickup model with those of the guitar in which it will be hosted.

An acoustically bright Stratocaster might benefit from pickups with increased mid range. A dark-sounding Stratocaster might benefit from bright pickups. 

Then, there is the small matter of individual player technique. Long ago, in a magazine interview far away, David Gilmour commented that, if you hand the same Stratocaster to six different guitarists, they could all make it sound different. In the case of famed recording artistes, within a few bars, it would be possible to tell who was playing.

The reason why I bought my Fender AVRI '65 Stratocaster is because its natural sound suits the hybrid plectrum and digits playing technique. 

OilCityPickups

During the Strat pickup's production run till the late 60s the turn count of the windings varied by year from a maximum of 8350 to a minimum of 7625 ... now 725 turns difference is a hell of a lot, and will change the pickups response considerably. Add to this The Strat Pickup started out being wound by hand with heavy Formvar, and ended up (in the time period of those winding variations) wound by machine with plain enamel wire (like Gibson humbuckers) and wire with different insulations build up on a bobbin differently ... this also caused minor (but noticeable) sound differences. 
All Strat pickups wound to traditional specs will sound broadly 'Stratty' but some will have more hollow mids, or more present bass etc etc. Why would pickup makers deny the choice of the different sound palettes to customers? 
As to the expense of pickups wound to those specs, just one major factor is the cost of vintage specification wire ... a roll of 5 kilos of 42awg modern poly wire cots around £130 ... a 2.5 kilo roll of vintage spec plain enamel wire costs nearly £300!

With the  arrival of our interchangeable sliding pickup compartment demo Feline Strat I can A/B Strat sets in the same guitar, through the same amp within about 30 seconds of each other ... thus removing the variables of different body, neck, strings etc ... it's interesting stuff, and shows up bigger differences between sets than even I had thought. 

thermionic

To be fair, there are substantial differences in dc resistance, wire type (I'm guessing, they don't say), magnet material, and magnet diameter in that range. I'd expect to hear some noticeable differences between them. Some of them clearly diverge from a traditional Strat pickup as well - 21.5 kΩ bridge pickup anyone?

I've only really swapped pickups in my 50s Tele, going from the stock, to AVRI '52 and eventually Custom Shop Nocaster. The difference was tiny, but then again, they're all takes on the exact same thing at different price points.

Fuengi

baldy said:

I have changed a few pickup sets now swapping the stock pups that came with cheap guitars Epiphone, Yamaha & Rockburn (please don"laugh) for "budget" pups from Vanson & Entwhistle & have heard massive differences/improvements.
This is only at home practice volumes though.

I have Entwistle pickups in my Tele - it came with them - and they sound superb. Have just ordered a set of his 57s for my Strat at £52 including postage. 

baldy

I put Entwistle HVX Bridge, HV 58+ Neck & XS 62 Middle in an old Yamaha RGX Superstrat after several emails with Simon from Entwistle discussing what I wanted to achieve, which was basically a very versatile guitar capable of covering lots of ground.
Grand total was £57 delivered & I am very pleased with the pups.
Great company to do business with IMO.
I have also had good experiences with Vanson buying 2 different pairs of humbuckers from them for an Epi Lp & Chinese copy LP which both came to just over £30 delivered per pair. 

PhilKing

I have most of the Bare Knuckle Strat pickups in different guitars.  They all sound like a Strat, but there is a world of difference between the Sultans and the Sinners.  Would you hear the difference between Mother's Milks and Veneer Board Strats?  That's harder to say, but on mine I can, but the Veneer Boards are in a maple neck 57 style hardtail and the Sultans are in a Basswood bodied Strat with an Ebony fingerboard.  The guitar will make quite a lot of difference, with the same pickups too, the fingerboard, body and neck material will all affect the tone.  You only have to play a few guitars unamplified to see that.

munckee

Fuengi said:

baldy said:

I have changed a few pickup sets now swapping the stock pups that came with cheap guitars Epiphone, Yamaha & Rockburn (please don"laugh) for "budget" pups from Vanson & Entwhistle & have heard massive differences/improvements.
This is only at home practice volumes though.

I have Entwistle pickups in my Tele - it came with them - and they sound superb. Have just ordered a set of his 57s for my Strat at £52 including postage. 

I played this thinline style tele and they are exceptional pick ups for any guitar. Cannot believe what @Fuengi  paid for it   

I bought seymour Duncan vintage blues for my 335 copy the difference is astounding. 

Fuengi

munckee said:

Fuengi said:

baldy said:

I have changed a few pickup sets now swapping the stock pups that came with cheap guitars Epiphone, Yamaha & Rockburn (please don"laugh) for "budget" pups from Vanson & Entwhistle & have heard massive differences/improvements.
This is only at home practice volumes though.

I have Entwistle pickups in my Tele - it came with them - and they sound superb. Have just ordered a set of his 57s for my Strat at £52 including postage. 

I played this thinline style tele and they are exceptional pick ups for any guitar. Cannot believe what @Fuengi  paid for it   

I bought seymour Duncan vintage blues for my 335 copy the difference is astounding. 

Yes, had a bit of luck there!   

gringopig

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OilCityPickups

gringopig said:

The expense is only directly related to the expectations of the manufacturer in terms of profit given the cost of materials and labour to make them. You could make an awful pickup which cost a lot to make and it would therefore be expensive.
I don't believe there is a consistent rule about increasing prices resulting in 'better' sound (whatever that may mean to you).

I think it's an impenetrable morass of variables: of wood, of magnetism, string and amplifier.

This confuses and excites the buyer and lays a smokescreen for manufacturers to artificially create a product range.

Beware: descriptions of 'solid' bass response, 'grinding mids', 'resonant bass' (LOL) and all these meaningless descriptions. They all betray how desperate the manufacturer is to differentiate their product range. When it comes down to it there is only a magnetic field with a field distribution pattern and wire to induce a current into. More wire, more current.

I see some of the descriptions as good attempts to describe this:

"The low magnetic pull of the Apache allows for excellent dynamics and perfect intonation."

I like that - it's actually useful and describes the physical reality of a weaker magnetic field!
Actually, reading the Bare Knuckle site, it's not too bad in attempting to convey actual realities rather than fanciful tosh. I could select a pickup easily from that site.

Except the one with the 'grinding' mids lol. I suppose I would need an amp for that too then?

'I don't believe there is a consistent rule about increasing prices resulting in 'better' sound (whatever that may mean to you).'

I agree with this largely: there is no 'better sound' just a 'sound that suits your ears and your playing'. If that sound comes from a cheaper pickup ... brilliant, you are happy and have saved yourself some money.

'I think it's an impenetrable morass of variables: of wood, of magnetism, string and amplifier.'

I agree again, it's far more complex than just fit an expensive pickup and hope it will cure all your ills.

'This confuses and excites the buyer and lays a smokescreen for manufacturers to artificially create a product range.'

Really? Do you think that all of us pickup makers are simply trying to part gullible guitarists from their money? 
The reality is, making pickups for a living (if you are a small maker) is a very poor way of getting rich. I do this full time and earn considerably less average, and far less than when I was employed. I do it because I love it, as many do in this business. Nothing quite beats the feeling of hearing someone playing your pickups live and sounding great ... you just want to nudge everyone in the audience near you and go 'I made those'!
When I retire ... if I can afford to retire ... I will still make pickups, because I love it.
Yes there are some snake oil salesmen in this business ... as there in all walks of life, but please don't tar us all with the same brush. 
As far as my own product range of Strat pickups, I built that up through customer requests: for example, If enough folks ask me to build a 1954 style, hand wound/heavy Formvar pickup, I add it to my range, simple as that. In general product ranges come from demand, not artificial creation in this business. 

It seems popular to knock makers at the moment, but remember, most of us are guitarists too, get just as excited about new kit, lust after new gear we can't afford, and have the same panic to pay the bills at the end of the month as everyone else :-)

gringopig

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OilCityPickups

gringopig said:

Really? Do you think that all of us pickup makers are simply trying to part gullible guitarists from their money? 
The reality is, making pickups for a living (if you are a small maker) is a very poor way of getting rich. I do this full time and earn considerably less average, and far less than when I was employed. I do it because I love it, as many do in this business. Nothing quite beats the feeling of hearing someone playing your pickups live and sounding great ... you just want to nudge everyone in the audience near you and go 'I made those'!
When I retire ... if I can afford to retire ... I will still make pickups, because I love it.
Yes there are some snake oil salesmen in this business ... as there in all walks of life, but please don't tar us all with the same brush. 
As far as my own product range of Strat pickups, I built that up through customer requests: for example, If enough folks ask me to build a 1954 style, hand wound/heavy Formvar pickup, I add it to my range, simple as that. In general product ranges come from demand, not artificial creation in this business. 

It seems popular to knock makers at the moment, but remember, most of us are guitarists too, get just as excited about new kit, lust after new gear we can't afford, and have the same panic to pay the bills at the end of the month as everyone else :-)

I'm not suggesting it's all cynical. A manufacturer requires a range of product to appeal to a wide range of expectation. A customer may want a clean accurate representation of the string vibration, another may want a higher output more muffled tone in order to overdrive the input to the amplifier. You need to supply a customer's needs!
You even have musical taste to appeal to so if you marketed two identical pickups to a customer who liked Sonic Youth versus one who favoured The Allman Brothers, you would have to pitch the identical pickups to each taste. there are only so many ways to make a pickup compared to the range of tastes in the area of demand, I'm guessing you also need to advertise or pitch the product in some direction.
Maybe it's more true for manufacturers who make product and wait for demand rather than independent makers who make specifically for request and then add to the range for future sales?

I would love to do your job but would want a decent wage lol 

I'm actually in favour of this and not knocking it at all. I love this stuff! I think 'smokescreen' was the wrong word to use to be honest. 

No offence taken :-)
Actually I think that a great deal of the 'smokescreen' that's out there comes from the musical press, and some particular manufacturers 'fanboys' who do a better job of pouring snakeoil into the mix than any advertising man. To be fair the PAF making end of the market suffers more from this than the Fender style end. I have listened with disbelief to guitarist happily saying he can hear the difference between maple bobbin spacers and mahogany ones ... and even one who wouldn't buy a modern repro of a vintage pickup if it used lead free solder ... apparently he could hear the vintage tone of a few small drops of lead and tin. 

 

gringopig

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OilCityPickups

gringopig said:

LOL. Those electrons pickup so much 'warmth' and 'mid-bite' from the 60/40 tin/lead. 

I'm infuriated by the type of examples you describe and as an actual manufacturer I can only wonder at how you keep your composure. 

I largely maintain my composure by coming here and  trying to explode some of the myths and bullshit that surround pickups and pickup making. :-)
 I let folks come into my workshop through my 'rewinds and restorations' threads in 'Made in the UK' and see for themselves how vintage pickups were made (in some cases very sloppily). And sometimes I punch the workshop door and go out for a fag :-)

gringopig

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Alegree

gringopig said:

You know what would be cool? (and possibly expensive)...

A video of the manufacturing process!

With detail about the components and the function of each with commentary about the effect on the perceived sound of variables within the construction. Myth-busting whilst advertising!

(and I could glean all your secret tricks and start my own pickup manufacturing company. I have a Metcal solder station and a big roll of 60/40!) he he

That's the video I'm filming right now (the third paragraph), so hold your horses.

And in answer to the main question of this thread - yes to the extent even a non-musician would notice a distinct difference between pickups at either end of the spectrum.