Which guitars between £1500 and £4000 fit these descriptions as standard?

ICBM

Gibson CJ-165.

Although it’s a ‘jumbo’ type shape, it’s surprisingly small - I’m pretty sure it’s smaller than a 000, although it's quite deep - and 24-3/4" scale.

It has very much the opposite of the dry/barky L-00 tone, it’s a big open strummy sound - maple body and neck.

Size comparison to a typical Dreadnought...

BahHumbug

I have both the Taylor 712ce, as mentioned by the OP and a Brook Torridge as mentioned by others.
The Taylor is really meant to be a fingerpickers guitar and when it was new it's strumming tone was quite muddy and brassy;  not particularly pleasant (it's picking tone was delightful though).  After 3 or 4 years of fairly intensive playing it did mellow a lot and it is now very pleasant, both as a strummer and a fingerpicker.
The Brook Torridge is much newer, but I suspect will go the same way.  Still in its first year of playing, its fingerpicking tone is pleasant, precise and defined, well balanced.  Strummed, there is too much complexity.  It sounds ok, but a bit harsh.   However I really think it will go the same way as the Taylor with a bit of playing.
The Brook feels as light as a feather compared to the Taylor and its neck is small, it makes the Taylor neck feel quite club-like.
I'd recommend both, but the Brook is hand made In England, with some English wood, which is nice.  The downside of the Brook is finding one, or waiting for one to be made.
+1 for a visit to the Brook workshop, it's a good experience.

Just a thought on the L-00.  Have you tried different strings?  They can make a marked difference.  Also has it had a chance to break-in?

AliGorie

forgive me Gareth but I'm confused re the selection process of this guitar - is it a 'surprise' present ?.

Given the description ya should let her try a small Eastman -

https://www.eastmanguitars.com/acoustic_double_oo

 

crunchman

As a couple of people have mentioned, Brook are very good.  They somehow make small guitars that sound big.  For me their smaller bodied guitars are better than models like the Teign (dreadnought sized).

Having said that, their standard neck profile is very shallow and the fingerboard is very flat.  Personally I don't get on with it at all.  If I had the money, I'd quite like to go to them and ask them to build something with a bit more depth, maybe a V shape, and with a smaller radius on the fingerboard.  If you do go for a Brook, make sure she spends some time playing one to check whether the neck and flat fingerboard are to her tastes.  If you go the custom route then you can specify what you want.

Gareth1234

Thanks ICBM 

Gibson CJ-165.
Although it’s a ‘jumbo’ type shape, it’s surprisingly small - I’m pretty sure it’s smaller than a 000, although it's quite deep - and 24-3/4" scale.

The CJ-165 looks awesome, I imagine it sounds stellar strummed too. It possibly does look closer to a dread than a 000 to me though.


Thanks BahHumbug

BahHumbug
I have both the Taylor 712ce and a brook...
The Brook feels as light as a feather compared to the Taylor and its neck is small, it makes the Taylor neck feel quite club-like...

"Young man what day is it?'' "Why it's Christmas day." Scrooge quotes, couldn't resist. :-)

We both grew up playing Tanglewood TW45s etc so anything more than a 1 11/16 inch neck feels slightly cumbersome if I we don't get on with the neck profile in addition to the nut. Had a 416ce Spring Limited Granadillo once and 410ce Tas Blackwood, neck was always a little bit hard to get my thumb round when playing F chord with my thumb on the bass rather than a bar. Love Gibson's current L-00 and J45 necks.
 

Just a thought on the L-00.  Have you tried different strings?  They can make a marked difference.  Also has it had a chance to break-in?

Tried Martin SP, Gibson Masterbuilt Premium and Elixer nano (yuk, J45 and L00 sound naff with Elixer in my opinion). Not tried 13s because it would be too much during our sets., sometime's up to 1h 30mins. It will break-in more but L-00 sounded pretty lush straight from the store to tell the truth. It just lacks a bit too much bottom and is the classic barky, dry woody Gibson sound. Plenty of punch, but not always great for light strumming in delicate moments, too dry and not enough sustain. Most of the time the strumming is medium to hard.

Thanks Ali Gorie

AliGorie
forgive me Gareth but I'm confused re the selection process of this guitar - is it a 'surprise' present ?.
Given the description ya should let her try a small Eastman -
https://www.eastmanguitars.com/acoustic_double_oo

No not a surprise present. I am more or less my wife's guitar tech - although I do play too of course, though I am a (grade 8 Jedi) and secondary school teacher by trade. If that Eastman sounds like and is intended as it looks I am not sure I will gain much, if anything, over current L-00.

Went down to check out Lowden S Shapes which seemed pretty reasonable. I would have to buy one used and so can't custom order, but need the nut to be smaller than the Lowden standard 45mm so...

I imagine I will have a hard time finding a used Lowden S from someone who ordered a smaller than standard nut with. DISCLAIMER: I know folks say that a Lowden S strummed isn't the most helpful singer songwriter sound for strumming - at all. I feel like it had more sustain and bass than the L-00 though, however, one will never get fireworks from a small bodied and short scale strummed acoustic I imagine!!! Though sometimes my imaginings are wrong I concede.

Lewy

Is she playing mic'd or plugged in generally? Lots of discussion here about different guitar types but if at the end of the day they'd all be going through the great sonic leveller that is DI'ing (leveller as in making 2.5k guitars sound essentially the same as 500 quid ones) then you may get closer to your requirements ...less bark when strummed, better sustain in quiet moments....with some decent compression (or even better multi-band compression as found on something like the LR Baggs Session DI).

Just a thought.

Gareth1234

Thanks Lewy. You are spot on. I was going to preemptively mention this with my last post thought it was already a little long!. I should have probably said in original post.

Allot of the time she's doing this acoustically, sometimes miked/recorded but mostly acoustically. Allot more recording coming up though as moving hose to get a live recording space for gatherings. These times look quite like this.



on Sunday's and a conferences and open mic nights she's doing more of this



and a little in between the two.

L-00 has an Anthem Sl installed which has the mic presence/balance thing tweaked to where it sounds like the guitar rather than adding too much colour either way - had a lot of success with Anthem SL in my own guitar. Have a Fishman Spectrum DI with comp etc and had a Baggs Venue which I moved on. Not always in a situation where we have time to sound check or even have a half decent tech on desk. Trying to get what we want at the source (guitar) first, then doing the best we can in plugged in situations - pick up, external pre amp eq pedal thing, desk, competent or incompetent sound tech.

Gareth1234

house

Gareth1234

P.S heard Martin 00-18V and 00-28V (maybe was VS) prove to be pretty decent strummers in context. If only they did them with the neck specs i'm looking for: 

Smaller than 1 3/4 inch nut. Example 1  11/16  (42.8mm)  or    1  23/32  (43.8mm)
Around a 00 body size (000 is bigger than i'm looking for).
14 Fret Neck Join (not a 12 fret)
25 inch or smaller scale length

Think old ED gives em a good strumming:

AliGorie

Ah - that kind of music - I see your difficulty choosing THE right tool.

Moe_Zambeek

I’ve heard some folks say the Santa Cruz H13 does a reasonable all-rounder job. Not too many around though. 

I have a Martin 00-16 WCE which is surprisingly good all round, though not a loud guitar. I really like it. Small, lovely neck, sounds good to me though the WCE is all mahogany.

I would also say that a small Lowden is not an ideal strumming Guitar for vox accompaniment, much as I love them. 

Gareth1234

                 Gareth 1234 "although I do play too of course, though I am a (grade 8 Jedi)"

Ha, sorry AliGorie meant to say Grade 8 Piano. By no means would any institution in there right mind accredit me any kind of guitar accomplishment recognition! Though Chopin's Fantaisie impromptu has given one a little coordination and right hand dexterity.

AliGorie said:
Ah - that kind of music - I see your difficulty choosing THE right tool.

Yeah your right. One minute your fingerpicking quietly while someone speaks, next minute your full on strumming to death with a full band. Next your starting half a song quite exposed with just vocal and guitar plucked then strummed. Then your performing a self written song for reflection which just guitar and vocal. Also it means you end up playing in a variety of settings both acoustically and plugged in. Quite versatile indeed. 

We noticed that the L-00 wasn't necessarily and all rounder the first time in a quite guitar only contemplative moment  lightly strumming the guitar, greeted by the a dominating very dry L-00 punch/thump rather then some 'nice' atmospheric sustaining tone's. Need more longer decay time in those type of moments than an L-00 typically produces.

Gareth1234

Thanks MoeZambeek

Thanks so mjch for the pointers. The scale length is longer than we would be looking for on the H13.  Wonder if a simple 00-18 or 00-28 would do the job if modified low oval performing artist neck is of a profile at which the 1 3/4" nut neck dosen't feel chunkier or harder to get round with your thumb than the Gibsons.

Gareth1234

Edit Reply To Lewy: Meant to say have Fishman Platinum Pro    NOT     Spectrum DI, which is a completely different animal.

crunchman

Gareth1234 said:

                 Gareth 1234 "although I do play too of course, though I am a (grade 8 Jedi)"

Ha, sorry AliGorie meant to say Grade 8 Piano. By no means would any institution in there right mind accredit me any kind of guitar accomplishment recognition! Though Chopin's Fantaisie impromptu has given one a little coordination and right hand dexterity.

AliGorie said:
Ah - that kind of music - I see your difficulty choosing THE right tool.

Yeah your right. One minute your fingerpicking quietly while someone speaks, next minute your full on strumming to death with a full band. Next your starting half a song quite exposed with just vocal and guitar plucked then strummed. Then your performing a self written song for reflection which just guitar and vocal. Also it means you end up playing in a variety of settings both acoustically and plugged in. Quite versatile indeed. 

We noticed that the L-00 wasn't necessarily and all rounder the first time in a quite guitar only contemplative moment  lightly strumming the guitar, greeted by the a dominating very dry L-00 punch/thump rather then some 'nice' atmospheric sustaining tone's. Need more longer decay time in those type of moments than an L-00 typically produces.

Has she tried a few effects to add a bit of atmospherics and ambience.  I play in church, and if I am playing solo, I'll put some POG, delay and reverb on.  The mix needs to be low, with the dry sound dominant, but it can work well if you do it right.