Cutaway VS Non-Cutaway Sound

DulcetJones

How much  does a cutaway affect the sound of acoustic guitars.  My observations have been driven by things I'v experienced more than what I hear.    I started seeing this over 20 years a go, I was playing a lower end, but well made non-cutaway and a couple of my students had higher end cutaway guitars.  Both of them marveled over the "sound" of my guitar compared to theirs, one even wanted to buy it.  I suspected that the cutaway might be causing this even though I really couldn't hear enough of a difference to say for sure.  Fast forward to today, I'm in a band where two of us are mainly playing plugged in acoustics, both have higher end guitars, mines a non cutaway, the other guys is a cutaway.  I plug straight into my amp, or at some gigs the front end, and always feel great about the sound I'm getting.  The other guitarist always goes right into the front end and after months of constantly "knob twiddling", he brought an "acoustic simulator" in and now spends half his time playing with settings, trying to get "that" sound.  I don't really get it, I think his guitar sounds great plugged in direct and have told him that but....., so, what gives?

stickyfiddle

All I know is that my favourite sounding acoustics are all non-cutaway. 

Though I wonder if your bandmate's issue is too many options. I'm assuming his guitar has an onboard preamp which gives him a million sounds all of which are probably a bit "piezo-y". If you have a single pickup with just a volume you don't have a choice, so you're more likely to plug it in and get on with the music bit

DiscoStu

There are many variables involved. Body size, age, solid or laminate top etc. One thing to consider is that the students would, I imagine,  be hearing your guitar with the sound coming towards them,  but on their own guitars the sound is travelling away.  I know I was surprised just how good my acoustic (high end cutaway Dreadnought) sounded when I handed it over to a mate to have a go! 

DulcetJones

stickyfiddle said:

All I know is that my favourite sounding acoustics are all non-cutaway. 

Though I wonder if your bandmate's issue is too many options. I'm assuming his guitar has an onboard preamp which gives him a million sounds all of which are probably a bit "piezo-y". If you have a single pickup with just a volume you don't have a choice, so you're more likely to plug it in and get on with the music bit

Both of us have a single piezo with volume and EQ.  I haven't made adjustments to anything on my guitar or amp for months, he fiddles around for about 10 minutes everytime he plugs in, eventually settling  on a good sound which he immediately isn't happy with at the next practice/gig. 

BigLicks67

I tend to edge for non cutaways, because on the whole I think they sound better and they are better balanced and less inclined to neck dive. however, I've heard enough cutaways that sound very good to not dismiss them out of hand. 
It also depends on what music your playing, some players just need to get up the dusty end and it's easier with a cutaway. 

richardhomer

I have a Taylor nylon string with a cutaway - I bought it for playability - rather than tone. I record it using the onboard Fishman electronics usually, do it isn’t primarily an ‘acoustic’ instrument.

My objections to cutaways is looks, really - on dreadnoughts in particular they look dreadful.

Richard Thompson’s Lowden has a cutaway and sounds pretty good to me....

ICBM

DulcetJones said:

Both of us have a single piezo with volume and EQ.  I haven't made adjustments to anything on my guitar or amp for months, he fiddles around for about 10 minutes everytime he plugs in, eventually settling  on a good sound which he immediately isn't happy with at the next practice/gig. 

Some people are just more sensitive to the unnatural artifacts in the piezo sound, and find it very hard to get happy with it.

I am one of those, but for live playing I’ve learned to just live with it and not worry, if everyone else thinks it sounds OK. It sounds like he hasn’t.

What are the guitars by the way? And/or are the pickup systems different? Not all piezo systems are equally good (or bad, depending on your point of view!).

I highly doubt it’s anything to do with the cutaway, not least because nuances like that don’t come out through a typical undersaddle piezo transducer. There is a small difference in acoustic tone in my opinion, a cutaway tends to reduce bass response slightly.

Lewy

Seems likely to me that you're just a better acoustic player than those students way back and your bandmate now, and you pull a better tone out than they do. Have you swapped rigs as an experiment to see what happens?

DulcetJones

I think the slight loss of bass response is partly responsible  in unplugged  settings, and with students it more than likely involves strumming approaches and overall inexperience.   My current guitar is a Fender Paramount PM-1 Standard, my bandmates  is a Taylor but I don't know any more about it other than it has a piezo pick up.    We haven't swapped instruments to compare,  he's never said anything about my sound compared   to his, he just pays a lot of attention to his sound as soon as he plugs in and off he goes.  As for cutaways allowing more access to the higher frets, I don't feel the need to play that high with the music we're doing and the Fender's neck joins the body at the 14th fret which gives a bit more access if I want it.  I don't know much about Taylors but I suspect his is probably more "higher end" than my Fender.  It always sound great to me, he has to really screw up the controls to get it sounding anything less than great.  It's just one of those quirks I guess, we all let him have his "tone dilemma" and then get on with the music. 

ICBM

DulcetJones said:

my bandmates  is a Taylor but I don't know any more about it other than it has a piezo pick up.

Are you/he sure? Taylor's first version of the Expression System is magnetic-based, not piezo - although this is a common misconception. If it has just three knobs on the upper bout, and *doesn't* have three small bolts directly behind the bridge saddle, it's one of these.

This first version of the ES has a magnetic pickup under the end of the fingerboard and a couple of 'inertial sensors' in the body. The one under the fingerboard gives it an odd, almost electric-guitar-like tonality when playing on the plain strings around the 10th-12th frets. (This system is also prone to reliability problems.)

Earlier Taylors use a Fishman system with a large preamp box in the side of the guitar and are piezo-based (or combined with a mic on some models), and the new version of the ES uses a piezo sensor in the bridge, but pressing against the back of the saddle - which is what the three small bolts do.

Personally I find Taylors hard to get a natural amplified sound out of, especially the Mk1 ES. I had and older one with the Fishman electrics and was never really happy with it, even after I added a magnetic soundhole pickup as well. But they have a huge number of pro users, so some people must like them...

DulcetJones

ICBM :     Are you/he sure? Taylor's first version of the Expression System is magnetic-based, not piezo - although this is a common misconception. If it has just three knobs on the upper bout, and *doesn't* have three small bolts directly behind the bridge saddle, it's one of these.


I'm going to have to take another look at that, I don't recall seeing the three small bolts and I had no idea they used anything but piezo.    We've got a gig tonight, I'll ask him.  Unlike a lot of guitarists he's not up on the details for acoustic or electric guitars(he actually asked me why the soundman called my "tele" a "tele" at the first gig I did with this band!

thermionic

I read an interview with one of the head honchos of Taylor (not Bob Taylor, I think it was the new guy, the surfer dude) where they said that the effect a cutaway has on the sound is not discernable to the human ear. Pickups and amplification will be what makes the difference I suspect.

I’ve never really understood the logic behind them either - a) who plays lead guitar high up on an acoustic’s neck anyway, and b) why would you need to do so on stage but not at home or in the studio?

ICBM

thermionic said:

I’ve never really understood the logic behind them either - a) who plays lead guitar high up on an acoustic’s neck anyway

It's not just about lead playing - try playing a barre Em at the 12th fret without one...

thermionic said:

b) why would you need to do so on stage but not at home or in the studio?

I think the logic is that since you rarely do that sort of thing unamplified, the only time you need a cutaway is on an electro-acoustic. I disagree, and it's annoying that it's quite hard to buy a cutaway guitar without electrics.

thermionic

ICBM said:

thermionic said:

I’ve never really understood the logic behind them either - a) who plays lead guitar high up on an acoustic’s neck anyway

It's not just about lead playing - try playing a barre Em at the 12th fret without one...

True, but I wouldn’t really want to play a bar chord at the 12fth fret on an acoustic anyway. Bit of a chicken/egg situation, if all acoustics had cutaways, maybe I would.

AliGorie

hey Dul, think bout it - internal volume of 'the box' has a big part to play in how a guitar sounds.

Ya need to look at what might be different - i.e. the depth of the body, a 1/4 inch increase in b/depth will more than make up for the amount lost by a cutaway. As most know (i.e. Taylor) the soundboard up in the area where cutaways live is pretty inactive in that most guitars have a whumping big structural transverse brace running across the top - here seen just at the lower curve of the c/away.

If u'r getting a 'sound' that satisfy u - just let the mystery be and play the hell out it.

 

 

ICBM

AliGorie said:

Is that a Lowden?

The shape looks about right, and it seems to have a pinless bridge with a split saddle, and a very hard to access truss rod .

AliGorie

yup,  pre - 'license' era with original 'dolphin' (parabolic) bracing.

Roland

ICBM said:

thermionic said:

I’ve never really understood the logic behind them either - a) who plays lead guitar high up on an acoustic’s neck anyway

It's not just about lead playing - try playing a barre Em at the 12th fret without one...

And also reaching harmonics quickly

gringopig

.

ICBM

gringopig said:

I went to a Taylor roadshow in Edinburgh (where I won a Taylor Academy 12E) :-)
It was clearly demonstrated that the cutaway has no effect whatsoever on the tone or projection of the guitar by dampening the body nearest the neck. You could change the tone drastically by even small pressure with the arm on the top near the soundhole and behind but no effect where a cutaway would be. This was stated and demonstrated. I believe my ears!

That only demonstrates that the top vibration there isn’t important. It doesn’t tell you anything about whether the reduced internal volume affects the bass response.

DulcetJones

My bandmates cutaway Taylor appears to have an undersaddle piezo with a simple 3 knob control panel just like my Paramount and there's no sign of screws or anything on the tailpiece or top.  He's not totally aware of what type of set up it is but it does look and sound a lot like most single piezo acoustics.  As I mentioned, he's not big on the technical stuff so it's an "acoustic electric" as far as he's concerned and that's all he needed to know when he bought it, other than feel and and overall sound.