Why do guitars....

SlopeSoarer

.... of the same model from the same manufacture vary in weight so much? And how does this change in properties affect their sound?

Funkfingers

Because they are made from wood. 

Funkfingers

Mostly.

richardhomer

Because they’re made of wood, which varies from piece to piece.

As has been mentioned in other threads, there are ‘bands’ for different models where the best sounding examples seem to fit.

SlopeSoarer

OK, they are made from wood! Is it realistic to say then that top manufacturers try to minimise variations in properties of wood to make a consistent item?

richardhomer

SlopeSoarer said:

OK, they are made from wood! Is it realistic to say then that top manufacturers try to minimise variations in properties of wood to make a consistent item?

Most ‘quality’ makers will buy wood which will produce instruments within a specified weight range - but the range may be quite wide - and even guitars of very similar weight can sound different from each other.

Rabs

Yes... Wood is organic, each piece is unique...  It depends on where on the tree it was cut from and how the tree was grown.. For example they use growth hormones or whatever it is these days to make them grow faster which makes the wood more dense and is why say some of the original LPs come in at like 6/7lbs as the trees were old growth and these days a solid body one is more like 9/10lbs...

Plus as someone who works with wood I can tell you that each piece cuts differently.. You find these random hard dense spots and softer spots as you are cutting through them.. It really is different for almost every piece.

And is why every guitar, even ones made of the same material and construction are each slightly different (and that's before you even start on the electrics side of things). There are also parts that are still hand finished like the neck profile and neck joints etc which is why each one feels slightly different too.

SlopeSoarer

Hi Rabs, great reply.

I've never heard of growth hormones but why do they produce a denser wood? I'd have thought that a wood which grows quickly would be less dense!?

Sorry just curious?

Rabs

SlopeSoarer said:

Hi Rabs, great reply.

I've never heard of growth hormones but why do they produce a denser wood? I'd have thought that a wood which grows quickly would be less dense!?

Sorry just curious?

Ha, you got me there. I was just looking it up to see if I could get an answer but I think by using certain hormones they can spur on certain types of growth patterns...  And to add to what I said apparently it also depends WHEN its grown...  Heres a snippit of what I found

Up to six types of wood can be isolated and studied on a single tree: early wood, late wood, juvenile wood, mature wood, reaction wood, and opposite wood. Each type of wood has different chemical, physical, physiological, mechanical, and anatomical properties [8–10].

The early wood is produced at the beginning of the growing season (spring wood) while late wood is the portion of an annual growth increment produced during the latter part of the growing season (summer wood). Early wood is composed of large diameter cells and has low density, whereas the late wood has smaller diameter cells and high density due to thicker cell walls. A growth ring (ring of wood) easily visible on a cross stem section results from periodic growth. One growth ring formed during a year is called an annual ring.

The gradual transition from juvenile to mature wood could not be perceptible in some transverse cuts of hardwood species. However, in softwood species, such as pines, a radial variation could be observed in the wood pattern based on different widths of the growth rings between the juvenile and mature wood

PLANT HORMONES

https://biologywise.com/plant-hormones-their-functions

vincechu89

SlopeSoarer said:

OK, they are made from wood! Is it realistic to say then that top manufacturers try to minimise variations in properties of wood to make a consistent item?

From memory, I think Suhr’s S (Strat) type guitars are very consistent in terms of weight (and sound and quality). Look at Peach Guitars’ website, most are around 8lb plus or minus a little. Similarly, it looks like most Masterbuilt Fenders are closer to 7.5lbs, without be specced  as ‘sort for light weight’. So I think there is an element of weight = consistency, with the usual caveat that not all wood is the same and there will always be good and bad (or just different) sounding guitars at any weight

robgilmo

Wood, old wood is denser than new wood, so, heart wood (the wood from the core of the tree) will be denser than sap wood (the wood from the outer layers), also the older wood gets, Oak for example, the harder it becomes. I have worked with 500 year old Oak and you couldn't hammer a nail into it.

Unfortunately, these days trees dont live as long as they used to, so we use a lot of sap wood because in a young tree heart wood isnt really that dense.


Look at antique furniture, I am sitting on a 200+ year old Elm chair, I cant make an indentation with my finger nail , its well hard, modern day elm I probably could, this is most likely because when my chair was made the tree the timbre came from was probably 100's of years old. 

robgilmo

Anyhow, my point is, get used to soft wood, that's all that will be left before long. Im off now to hug a tree.

guitars4you

SlopeSoarer said:

OK, they are made from wood! Is it realistic to say then that top manufacturers try to minimise variations in properties of wood to make a consistent item?

there is not a definitive weight that works for any guitar - So a variation is allowed and acceptable - ie Fender custom Shop Strats and most are within 7lbs 6oz and 8lbs - few heavier and not many lighter - No Strat is better because it is 2oz heavier or lighter within that framework, but as we are dealing with wood, then 2 pieces might have a slightly different acoustic note/pitch and produce a slightly brighter, or warmer, or softer voice - One might well be a touch more vibrant, but that is not down to the weight alone - Which you prefer is always a matter of taste

SlopeSoarer

Thanks for the replies I've enjoyed reading your comments

francer

guitars4you said:

SlopeSoarer said:

OK, they are made from wood! Is it realistic to say then that top manufacturers try to minimise variations in properties of wood to make a consistent item?

there is not a definitive weight that works for any guitar - So a variation is allowed and acceptable - ie Fender custom Shop Strats and most are within 7lbs 6oz and 8lbs - few heavier and not many lighter - No Strat is better because it is 2oz heavier or lighter within that framework, but as we are dealing with wood, then 2 pieces might have a slightly different acoustic note/pitch and produce a slightly brighter, or warmer, or softer voice - One might well be a touch more vibrant, but that is not down to the weight alone - Which you prefer is always a matter of taste

I’ve seen it posted on various guitar forums that custom shop selects the lightest most resonant bodies. I don’t doubt they are selected by some criteria and maybe they are more resonant but looking at any major guitar dealer where weights are quoted, ie Wildwood, Coda and you can see that CS guitars are similar weights stock production models in many cases.

guitars4you

francer said:

guitars4you said:

SlopeSoarer said:

OK, they are made from wood! Is it realistic to say then that top manufacturers try to minimise variations in properties of wood to make a consistent item?

there is not a definitive weight that works for any guitar - So a variation is allowed and acceptable - ie Fender custom Shop Strats and most are within 7lbs 6oz and 8lbs - few heavier and not many lighter - No Strat is better because it is 2oz heavier or lighter within that framework, but as we are dealing with wood, then 2 pieces might have a slightly different acoustic note/pitch and produce a slightly brighter, or warmer, or softer voice - One might well be a touch more vibrant, but that is not down to the weight alone - Which you prefer is always a matter of taste

I’ve seen it posted on various guitar forums that custom shop selects the lightest most resonant bodies. I don’t doubt they are selected by some criteria and maybe they are more resonant but looking at any major guitar dealer where weights are quoted, ie Wildwood, Coda and you can see that CS guitars are similar weights stock production models in many cases.

most builders will select wood based on weight, and a vibrant acoustic voice (call it resonance if you like) but it needs to ring - Often tapped to hear its acoustic voice - Often grain pattern on certain colours - Weight will come into play but weight alone will not always means it sounds good, hence it is tapped to examine its natural acoustic voice - As I mentioned above, there is a guide line frame work that produces desired final product, but variations outside this can still work - Overall it is a guide line rather than a science to the finer nth degree

carlos

All I learned here is that people use growth hormones for better wood. I think Boots sells it OTC these days.

SlopeSoarer

carlos said:

All I learned here is that people use growth hormones for better wood. I think Boots sells it OTC these days.

Carlos, I'll get you another half, I think you glass is only half full

thegummy

carlos said:

All I learned here is that people use growth hormones for better wood. I think Boots sells it OTC these days.

lol

When they first started selling it, I was in the queue and noticed the sign and thought "heh viagra" (because I'm a child) but the creepy looking guy in front of me, who was in for something unrelated, also saw the sign and started enquiring about them then had to answer all these questions and fill out a questionaire.

Then I heard the woman say "it's only if there's a medical issue" or something.

All the while I'm waiting forever to get the painkillers or whatever I was in for.

thegummy

Every time I see this thread title, in my head I sing it to the tune of "why do birds suddenly appear"

richardhomer

@Carlos - I presume it’s you who’s ‘loling’ any post in this thread about wood making a difference to sound?

If I’m right, why not grow a pair and make your argument out in the open, rather than undermine those who are trying to answer the OP’s question?