Those who have gigged with modellers... what do you plug them into?

What's Hot
CirrusCirrus Frets: 3558
Ok, I'm asking this question just as an exploratory curiosity. No sir, I'm not thinking about switching actual heavy and loud and awesome valve amps for a little digital wonderbox, nope, never, not a chance...

... but... if I did get, like, a L6 Helix or something...

What's the consensus and experience here about the best way to hear it on stage? Obviously the main outputs go straight to front of house and they do with it what they will, but up on stage, do you trust them to send it back to you through the stage wedges in a manner that will sound and feel comfortable as a performer? Or do you use another output and send it to a foldback speaker/ cab of some kind that you control?

My instinct would be that I'd want my own guitar foldback wedge at my feet that the sound person had nothing to do with, and I could set for my own comfort. And that I'd want it to be a normal relatively flat speaker so I could send it the same signal, amp and cab modelling and all, that would be going to the front of house.
Captain Horizon (my old band);
Very (!) Occasional Blog
0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
«1

Comments

  • John_AJohn_A Frets: 1578
    House monitors if I know it's a decent PA, or DXR-10 for my own band
    Do me a favour and like this:

    https://www.facebook.com/MarkedCoversBand
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • simonksimonk Frets: 1156
    edited August 22
    I use the 1/4” out on the Helix to feed either a QSC K8.2 or Yamaha DXR10 at my feet so I have control of my own guitar volume. The main outs then go to the desk. Everything else I want in my mix then comes from the desk to whichever of the above I’m using in the normal fashion. I don’t miss having an amp behind me in the slightest and I can hear myself better than ever before.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • rich75rich75 Frets: 11

    Helix 1/4" out to a Yamaha DXR10 on a short speaker pole behind me. Nothing sent to PA as my band just runs off backline, with only vocals (and sometimes bass drum) going through the PA. 

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • RolandRoland Frets: 2106
    Cirrus said:

    What's the consensus and experience here about the best way to hear it on stage? 
    There's not a single answer to this. My band runs everything through the PA. We have individual IEM mixes which we can set with a ‘phone app. In addition I run a Matrix Q12 at guitar height, either on an amp stand or pole. This gives acoustic coupling with my guitar. It’s EQd to match what comes out of the PA. It provides a different quality of sound to what I can hear through IEMs, and I can control the volume myself.

    @clarky uses a Marshall and 4x12. If he’s around he can provide a different view.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • drwiddlydrwiddly Frets: 340
    I've been gigging with modellers for years and I've used a number of different solutions for my onstage sound, from power amps and guitar cabs to an FRFR system. They can all be made to work very well and it depends what you want from your rig.

    Power amps and guitar cabs will give you the most traditional sound. Solid state power amps are usually more neutral sounding whereas valve amps are warmer and more punchy with faster transients. Let me reassure you that an Axe FX II into a Mesa 2:90 driving a couple of 2x12 cabs will hold its own against any valve head and cab(s) rig!

    Last weekend I did a gig with my Kemper into a Red Sound RS-LG12 powered cab and a Yamaha DXR10. I also had a feed to the PA for some extra spread. The Red Sound was on the floor with the DXR10 pole mounted behind it. It was loud and very articulate- I was really impressed with the sound. A bit lighter than a power amp and cabs too!
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • BeexterBeexter Frets: 302
    DXR10 for me too. AX8 with Jack lead to DXR10 and xlr outs to PA
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • kennedydream1980kennedydream1980 Frets: 231
    edited August 22
    XLR outputs on helix direct to PA in stereo. Monitor in stereo via IEM’s
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • WazmeisterWazmeister Frets: 4029
    I've tried various, including 'real' cabs (don't rule this out; with some profiles, my Kemper sounded awesome through a Neo 1x12 cab).

    I settled on a Red Sound RS LG12, and then going into an Allen and Heath mixer into a 2 x DXR10 based PA...

    Now, at home, it's a completely different bag. This time I use Genelecs 8020s...




    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • cbellangacbellanga Frets: 387
    Atomic CLR Neo Wedge initially but now I'm using a QSC K8.2 with great results.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • CirrusCirrus Frets: 3558
    I guess one of the things I'm thinking about is that with a real analogue amp, the sound generator is a physical object in that the speaker and the cab play a major part in the tone. Sure, the sound you hear still has a big variable - the room, and where the amp and you are relative to each other.

    But with a modelling amp, there's another level of variability which is that the things that are generating the actual tone silently pass out an electrical signal, and then leave it up to you to decide how you're going to hear it.

    So in that case... does it become harder to dial in tones that translate across different rooms and different playback systems? One of the things I like about a real amp is that it's a sonic event, and even if the soundman is a bit incompetent at least the amp is there sounding exactly the way I know it always does.

    With modelling gear, do you ever dial in the tone on monitors at home then get to the gig and go "oh fuck, all my patches have way too much bass"? Or even, do you dial them in alongside the band in the practice room at gig volumes through a FRFR cab, then get to a gig and have to use IEMs and hate the tones, or get stuck using the provided monitors that sound nothing like what you were setting the gear up through? Do soundmen ever shaft you by doing daft things at the FOH that shift the sound far from what you intended?

    I know these are all kinda existential thoughts, it's very interesting reading the various setups people are using in this thread so thanks for the replies!
    Captain Horizon (my old band);
    Very (!) Occasional Blog
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • CirrusCirrus Frets: 3558
    drwiddly said:
     Let me reassure you that an Axe FX II into a Mesa 2:90 driving a couple of 2x12 cabs will hold its own against any valve head and cab(s) rig!
    This sentence has reassured me somewhat!


    Captain Horizon (my old band);
    Very (!) Occasional Blog
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3030
    edited August 22
    Roland said:
    Cirrus said:

    What's the consensus and experience here about the best way to hear it on stage? 
    There's not a single answer to this. My band runs everything through the PA. We have individual IEM mixes which we can set with a ‘phone app. In addition I run a Matrix Q12 at guitar height, either on an amp stand or pole. This gives acoustic coupling with my guitar. It’s EQd to match what comes out of the PA. It provides a different quality of sound to what I can hear through IEMs, and I can control the volume myself.

    @clarky uses a Marshall and 4x12. If he’s around he can provide a different view.
    for my live backline these days I use a Matrix GT1000FX cos it's more powerful than the Marshall 8008.
    It also weighs less and has a better 'feel'..
    tone wise though I can't hear much, if any difference between the 8008 [set Linear] and the GT1000

    cabs: I use a pair of Marshall 1960B cabs set 4ohms
    live the cabs are mic'd normally [no DI from the Axe-FX to the PA]
    Axe-FX power amp modelling is active, cab modelling is off

    in the studio at home, I don't use the backline
    the Axe is jacked into my mixing desk and USB to my Mac for recording / reamping
    in this configuration Axe-FX power amp modelling is active, cab modelling is active
    play every note as if it were your first
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • andy1839andy1839 Frets: 576
    I use my Kemper stereo straight into the PA and use a DXR12 from the monitor out for personal monitoring.

    We've got an HK Audio Linear PA system and the sounds I get at home are just the same as through the PA.

    There's a global eq on the Kemper output section so you can alter it on the fly without going to the desk.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • KeefyKeefy Frets: 131
    The guitarist in my main band (in which I usually play bass) uses his Helix LT into an old Marshall Valvestate 100W 2x12 combo - not a guitar amp, but one intended to be FRFR for use with keyboards etc. He picked it up on Gumtree for £25 and it sounds fine. He also sends some signal to the PA, for spread rather than for volume.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • mr-macmr-mac Frets: 197
    edited August 27
    GSP1101 

    have used direct to PA and sounds superb.  IR files and a global eq can tailor to venue quickly.

    Last gig I went straight into Power Amp in on a Lab Series L7 (4x10) (used options of - power amp & cab/valve power amp setting in setup - as L7 didn't need the solid state eq/hf attenuation the solid state power amp setting gives).

    Can highly recommend Lab Series amps as a great amp platform for a quality modeller.  Not sure how well it would work with modellers of lower quality (they may benefit from a warm and coloured valve power amp) but Lab Series is sublime with good modellers and plus point they aren't expensive at all.  Sounded better with lab series by a fair margin than it did in practise room using power amp in on a 60w Marshall jcm2000 and 4x12.  This combo sounded as good as any valve amp i have used either with modelled preamp or gt trio valve preamp.

    Lab series power amp in keeps master volume in line so easy to tweak stage volume to desired.  Have also mic'd the lab series to pa rather than xlr (as didn't have a suitable matching IR at time) and it also sounds fantastic this way too.

    I am so impressed I am gonna buy a beat up lab series L5 (as well as my L7) and convert to a light neodium driver 1x12 with my spare gsp built in to the combo with as a lighter grab and go amp for Jam's, practise and maybe odd short notice gig.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • AdamskiAdamski Frets: 757
    edited August 28
    Best I’ve ever heard a Helix is through a Redsound LG12 

    https://youtu.be/nvdYAS0gjnM
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • menamestommenamestom Frets: 2333

    I used mine into a Roland AC60 acoustic amp the other day.  Sounded pretty good, considering I had no setup time whatsoever.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • sgosdensgosden Frets: 674

    I tend to run helix split path with a send to a matrix GT1000 and out to a cab either side of the stage (2x12s if its my gear or whatever cabs are being provided as backline), and a path with dual stock cabs out Mono to FOH.

    On a bigger stage / one with decent monitoring, I'd be happy to run it without the stage cabs, but I do like having some grunt behind me. also the stage cabs help out the drummer when he hasn't got any monitoring. Also means I can turn them up or down and move them about a bit for drums/bassist, without mucking up the mic placement or send volume.



    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • drwiddlydrwiddly Frets: 340
    Had an interesting afternoon yesterday. A fellow guitarist and I rented a studio and brought a big selection of digital gear to try out various things at band volume levels.

    Between us we had:
    2 x Axe FX II
    Kemper
    Digitech GSP1101
    Matrix GT1000FX
    Fryette Power Station
    A Montage 2x12 cab with Celestion Neo Creambacks
    Red Sound RS-LG12
    2 x Yamaha DXR10

    As is usual with these sorts of things, any conclusions we came to were purely subjective but some things were very obvious. The Axe FX is a great bit of kit and can sound wonderful but in every comparison we thought the Kemper's amp sounds were superior. They sounded more natural and believable and through the Red Sound/DXR combo the KPA sounded immense.

    We tried the Axe through both the FRFR system and through both power amps and cab and it was great either way. Surprisingly, the two power amps were very close and there wasn't much to choose between them.

    We only used the GSP1101 very briefly through the FRFR system (I use it as a spare/back up) and we were surprised at how good it sounded. Not quite up to the KPA or the Axe but for £200ish s/h it's a bargain.

    Guitars were a Schecter C1 that my friend bought two weeks ago (I have no idea about pickups but it cost around £1k so imagine they're decent). A USA Strat with Di Marzio's, a Patrick Eggle Berlin with Oil City Scrapyard Dog + pickups and a PRS Tremonti SE Custom with Oil City Blue Streak pickups.

    As a result of all this we are swapping presets for the Axe between us and my friend's saving up for a Kemper!
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • KeefyKeefy Frets: 131
    Adamski said:
    Best I’ve ever heard a Helix is through a Redsound LG12 

    https://youtu.be/nvdYAS0gjnM
    I like the cheeky nad scratch at 0.20!
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • digitalscreamdigitalscream Frets: 12193
    I was using a DXR10 for monitoring my Helix, and DI to the desk (never trust the sound guy). Unfortunately, for various reasons, I'm now back to using the preamp models in the Helix > 50W valve power amp (R&R SOLO) -> 2x12".

    I honestly preferred the on-stage sound from the DXR10, but I got sick and tired of negotiating with sound guys to run the Helix direct to the desk, so it's easier to effectively run the Helix as preamp/effects and do the rest the traditional way, so the DXR10 is up for sale :(
    "Mains is ouchy if you get it up you" - Sporky
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • CirrusCirrus Frets: 3558
    I don't know why soundguys wouldn't jump at the chance of a direct feed?
    Captain Horizon (my old band);
    Very (!) Occasional Blog
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • sgosdensgosden Frets: 674
    Cirrus said:
    I don't know why soundguys wouldn't jump at the chance of a direct feed?

    I've have loads who aren't happy about it, but are usually alright if you insist.

    I did however have a mono & stereo versions of identical patches for 8 months. Not a single FOH would take a stereo signal, even though we're a 1 guitar band. Gave up asking eventually.

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • digitalscreamdigitalscream Frets: 12193
    Cirrus said:
    I don't know why soundguys wouldn't jump at the chance of a direct feed?
    That's what I thought. I think it's as soon as they see "Line 6", and then I end up spending 10 minutes trying to convince them that it's not a POD. It gets exhausting pretty quickly.

    One sound guy actively tried to make it sound shit to make his point - I couldn't understand why it sounded so bad, and then I wandered over to the desk and saw he'd whacked the treble right up and cut the bass.
    "Mains is ouchy if you get it up you" - Sporky
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • CirrusCirrus Frets: 3558
    Madness, isn't it. I know any thread where soundguys are mentioned ends up pretty much a 50/50 split of people either laying into them or saying that guitarists are the problem (Stockholm syndrome, I suspect), but why are so many sound people absolutely terrible at not ruining the show? You know those exact same sound men would have a problem with a valve amp too.
    Captain Horizon (my old band);
    Very (!) Occasional Blog
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • drwiddlydrwiddly Frets: 340
    We had a sound guy who did the odd gig with us who was incredibly resistant to using a direct line. One night I spoke very nicely to him and convinced him to try a line from my Kemper rather than micing the cab and, if it was bad, then we'd change over.

    after the gig I asked him what he thought. In typical blunt, Yorkshire fashion he said "It was bloody brilliant! Best amp sound I've heard in years and no feedback!" Since then he just drapes an xlr cable over my rig for me to plug in.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • digitalscreamdigitalscream Frets: 12193
    Cirrus said:
    Madness, isn't it. I know any thread where soundguys are mentioned ends up pretty much a 50/50 split of people either laying into them or saying that guitarists are the problem (Stockholm syndrome, I suspect), but why are so many sound people absolutely terrible at not ruining the show? You know those exact same sound men would have a problem with a valve amp too.
    At least 50% of the sound guys we come across are actually landlords/bar staff/cleaners/etc who got landed with the job because nobody else wanted to, so they can't really be blamed for not knowing what they're doing. I usually try to have a friendly chat with them beforehand so I can get a sense of their competence/ability.
    "Mains is ouchy if you get it up you" - Sporky
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • sgosdensgosden Frets: 674
    drwiddly said:


    after the gig I asked him what he thought. In typical blunt, Yorkshire fashion he said "It was bloody brilliant! Best amp sound I've heard in years and no feedback!" Since then he just drapes an xlr cable over my rig for me to plug in.
    Had a bloke who (after a small amount of speculation) thought having no amps on stage was brilliant because he could shut the guitarist up whenever he wanted, and didn't have to battle the amp volume knob that keeps creeping up through the show!
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • CirrusCirrus Frets: 3558
    Cirrus said:
    Madness, isn't it. I know any thread where soundguys are mentioned ends up pretty much a 50/50 split of people either laying into them or saying that guitarists are the problem (Stockholm syndrome, I suspect), but why are so many sound people absolutely terrible at not ruining the show? You know those exact same sound men would have a problem with a valve amp too.
    At least 50% of the sound guys we come across are actually landlords/bar staff/cleaners/etc who got landed with the job because nobody else wanted to, so they can't really be blamed for not knowing what they're doing. I usually try to have a friendly chat with them beforehand so I can get a sense of their competence/ability.
    On the gig we played together, I remember the sound guy asking me what speakers were in my cab. I don't think he expected the year of manufacture and the Celestion T-number.  =)
    Captain Horizon (my old band);
    Very (!) Occasional Blog
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • digitalscreamdigitalscream Frets: 12193
    Cirrus said:
    Cirrus said:
    Madness, isn't it. I know any thread where soundguys are mentioned ends up pretty much a 50/50 split of people either laying into them or saying that guitarists are the problem (Stockholm syndrome, I suspect), but why are so many sound people absolutely terrible at not ruining the show? You know those exact same sound men would have a problem with a valve amp too.
    At least 50% of the sound guys we come across are actually landlords/bar staff/cleaners/etc who got landed with the job because nobody else wanted to, so they can't really be blamed for not knowing what they're doing. I usually try to have a friendly chat with them beforehand so I can get a sense of their competence/ability.
    On the gig we played together, I remember the sound guy asking me what speakers were in my cab. I don't think he expected the year of manufacture and the Celestion T-number.  =)
    Heh...that would've been Tony. He's one of the good ones - a proper gear nerd.
    "Mains is ouchy if you get it up you" - Sporky
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
Sign In or Register to comment.