Brush painting Dulux on Tele body

deano

Hello.

My darling wife bought me a Crimson guitars Telecaster kit for my birthday back in April. It's a lovely ash body with a maple neck and ebony fingerboard. A really nice piece of kit.

I have claimed to be too busy with work to apply the finish and put it together. In truth I am scared in case I screw it up.

I have to drill the holes through the body for the strings, the neck screws, and for the tuners. I have bought a device that clamps my cordless drill and should give me holes perpendicular to the body. I guess I will just have to measure carefully and go for it, hoping that any mistake can be intonated out!

Anyway, that is not the point of my post but if anyone has any tips or kind words of encouragement, they would be very much appreciated.

I want to apply a solid finish (there is some nice grain in the wood but I'm not that confident in applying stains to bring it out. I understand I ought to apply black, sand it off and apply a couloured stain, but maybe next time). I will be sanding the body to 320 grit and applying a grain filler. Beyond those two things, do I need to do anything else before painting?

I have seen the perfect colour (a darkish red colour called 'Monarch' by Dulux if anyone is interested) and because l have no confidence in my spraying and in any case I don't really have the facilities, I think I will paint it on using a good quality brush. I am prepared to put some elbow grease in between coats to sand it down and add multiple coats. After that I will go up through the grades to two- or three-thousand grit before buffing to a final - hopefully - mirror finish.

The questions I have are (a) would this give me a good quality finish? I am prepared to spend time on this so it's not as if I have a deadline, and (b) given the paint is gloss to start with, would I need to finish with a lacquer? If so what is the best sort for this kind of paint given that again I will be applying by brush or cloth and sanding to a glossy finish?

On a more general question with reference to lacquer, what is it applied for? Is it to protect the paint or to add glossiness? If a body was painted with matt emulsion and then a gloss lacquer added and polished, would the effect be the same as just using gloss paint? I'm confused over the role of lacquer, and even whether lacquer CAN be used over matt emulsion or gloss paints.

Are there any gotcha's that people can think of? As far as the neck goes, I wan't to apply a stain (either to the wood or using a tinted lacquer) to give an antique maple type of finish, with a satin feel to aid playability. Again to be applied by brush or cloth. Any thoughts or recommendations as to products?

Thanks for any help you can give.

Corvus

I'm not sure that type of enamel can be fltted and polished, enamels cure in the outer skin and very slowly deeper through. Once you're through the very thin hard outer it gets messy. Could do a tester pot first I guess. Definitely can't put a solvent based lacquer over an emamel, until it's old, it will react, there's about 50% solvent in it.
Basically I just wouldn't use an oil-based enamel of any kind on a guitar though.

How about getting a colour mixed in celly, Steve Robinson could sort that out I'd think. No need for lacquer with a solid colour. Just flat & polish away. Celly (nitro) dries fast, solvent evaporates fast - less change of bugs & crap landing, DIY friendly.
Ash has deep grain so bear that in mind re filling, if you want a flat/even shiney finish.

WezV

drop the dulux idea right now.   it won;t give good results.


spend some time looking at other DIY finishes.  you won;t get a deep burgundy red like that from a stain.   you might be able to do it with a brushing lacquer like rustins plastic coating, although that would work best as a trans finish rather than solid.

if you could get some nitro mixed in a can, that would be the best way forward.

....


as for drilling string holes.   Use the bridge as a guide to make a thicker template, at least 1/2" thick.   when drilling the body drill the outer string holes all the way through using your thick template.  drill the inner 4 half way through.  flip over the body and re-align your template on the back, using those outer screw holes.   Now drill the inner 4 holes from the back.   

Use your thick string hole template with 2-3mm string holes to make a ferrule template with 8mm string holes (depending on ferrule choice.   Use this template to ensure the ferrules line up perfectly even if the string holes don't

SteveRobinson

My Dakota Red is very close to the Dulux shade should you decide to go the nitrocellulose route 

rpr

Maybe look into milk paint, applied with a rollar.  Sure Millimetric guitars use this method.
https://www.realmilkpaint.com  ;

Gassage

Have you considered an Artex finish?

Gibson often used it in the Norlin era.

Gagaryn

If you are wed to the idea of brushing on a solid finish then nitrocellulose would seem to be the best option. Let it cure properly and wet and dry or micro mesh to a smooth finish. My tele body had a very matt finish when I got it and I was able to bring it to a shine using micro mesh. It's a reliced finish but these pics give an idea of the difference.

  

deano

Thank you for the advice. It's very much appreciated. I might just get some cheap spray cans and practice spraying on some old wood. Then perhaps spray the coloured nitrocellulose from Manchester Guitar Tech on the actual guitar.

deano

I think I have a little better understanding of things finishing now. But I could be wrong, so I would like to check with the experts on here.

When I mention stain in this post, I mean something like the Stunning Stains range of water-based colours from Crimson guitars.

As I have an ash body, this means it is more porous than say a maple top. I will have to grain fill the ash body and sand back before attempting to stain. However, again because of the ash's porocity, it is more of a risk to apply stain directly to the wood as it can be splotchy. Maple on the other hand is able to be stained with more reliability because it is less porous. Is that correct?

So on an ash body it would probably be better to apply a lacquer that is already coloured, such as those from Manchester Guitar Tech or or Rothko and Frost. That way there is less risk of splotchyness. The downside being that the grain might not be as fully developed - not pop-out as much in other words.

So getting the level of grain definition is part of the trade of between the qualities of different woods and the safety factor of getting a decent finish.

Have I got that right? There is so much information on the electric internet that some of it is contradictory! Unless it is due to factors in different woods and the safety of getting a decent finish over getting a more spectacular one but with the risk of it being a poor one.

Thanks for the help so far. It is really useful to someone like me who is new to the process of finishing.

Sarge

staining ash isn't much different to other woods, if it's blotchy that's down to poor application rather than the wood's qualities.
if you have a useable grain pattern you can forgo the grain filling as the grain will take more stain and appear darker, unfilled ash grain can be beautiful with a simple stain/oil finish, texture is everything  

Corvus

Stain isn't that difficult to do, you can darken up lighter areas. Endgrain soaks it up more. I wouldn't say either ash or maple is harder to stain as such and individual pieces of each vary anyway.

Translucent lacquers have their own issues. Certainly not easier than staining but if you're going for a dark/heavy tint, that's more forgiving vs no hiding a problem in a light tint.
Your spraying has to be decent, avoiding tiger stripes, light vs heavy areas. Runs & dog hairs and big fat flies taking a swim are a problem and game over with a light tint.

As with everything there's techniques and things to learn your way around,

In terms of easy, stain + oil with grain texture followed by stain + cleacoat, grainy texture. Hardest by a good bit is flat glassy gloss. Choosing a way depends what finish you want, and praps what you fancy in terms of figuring out finishing stuff along the way.

deano

It's funny. There are a ton of videos on YouTube that describe how to apply a stain with an oil finish over ash. I can't find any that describe how to apply a stain with a glossy lacquer finish over ash.

I don’t want any blotches or splotches where patches of the wood are darker or lighter than the rest (other than where the grain itself takes on more or less colour of course). I don’t want pinholes of lighter or darker colour where pores are present. I want it to be a perfect, high-gloss, deep, transparent red with the grain popping through. I agree the texture is everything. In my case the texture needs to be glass-like smooth. That is the texture I want.

How do I do it?

There is talk on the internet of grain fillers, tinted grain fillers, sanding sealer, dyes or stains, water-based or alcohol-based stains and dyes, dark stains or dyes that are sanded back, coloured dyes or stains added over the dark sanded back stain, tinted lacquers, and clear lacquers. The processes people describe use some of these in varying combinations, but there is no consistency. It seems that folk generally slap things on in pretty much any order! It is confusing for people like me who just want to know what steps to take to achieve the end result.

Is it that difficult to do what I want? Is it impossible to do without expensive, dedicated equipment with purpose built, environmentally-controlled rooms, or is it that only a few people know how to do it and they are keeping the secret? Does PRS pay them to keep their knowledge away from the public?

I don't want a burst effect or a burnt charcoal body or oxidised or rusted copper or anything like that. All I want is to accentuate the grain in the ash to make it ‘pop’ as people say, then give it a nice, deep, transparent red colouring, and then finish off to a nice, glass-like, high-gloss shine. Why are there no videos to show how to do that sort of thing? Is it so boring or so unusual that nobody wants to explain it?

I know oil is the finish that is most popular at the moment, but I have no desire to use it. I'm sorry if that annoys, offends or upsets people but it isn't something that interests me. Perhaps I just need to wait ten years for oil to go out of fashion and for nitro lacquer in spray cans to come back into fashon, and there will be a pile of YouTube videos describing how to get what I want.

Anyway, thank you all for your help, I am very grateful.

SteveRobinson

deano said:

There is talk on the internet of grain fillers, tinted grain fillers, sanding sealer, dyes or stains, water-based or alcohol-based stains and dyes, dark stains or dyes that are sanded back, coloured dyes or stains added over the dark sanded back stain, tinted lacquers, and clear lacquers. The processes people describe use some of these in varying combinations, but there is no consistency. It seems that folk generally slap things on in pretty much any order! It is confusing for people like me who just want to know what steps to take to achieve the end result.

It's because, like playing the guitar, there are lots of ways of doing it. People find what works for them.

At some point you've got to choose an initial approach and get stuck in using the knowledge that you've gleaned from the various sources that you've seen and read. You might make some mistakes but you will learn from them and move on.

A transparent high gloss finish is certainly not the easiest if you have no prior experience but FWIW, here's how I'd go about it:

1. Ensure that your wood is well sanded
2. grain filler
3. sanding sealer
4. transparent red lacquer until you achieve the desired shade
5. lots and lots of clear gloss. Yes lots. Several cans.
6. allow to harden for a couple of weeks
7. flat sand, buff and polish

It's important that each step is right before you move to the next.

You'll need time, patience and somewhere warm, dry and well ventilated to spray. Unless you have access to suitable premises then outside is probably best, lets hope for some nice weather. 

deano

Thank you Steve, for your advice. It is very much appreciated.

I will be doing the finishing in my garage, so I can open the door to get fresh air and yet still be shielded from the worst of the weather. I guess if the wind is blowing straight into the garage, then I will wait for better weather.

I understand your comment about the finish I want not being the easiest to apply, but I won't be happy with any other. It's in my head that the finish I want is the more traditional one.

I don't like 'modern'!

It's a mental problem I have I think. My son tells me I should have been born into some minor branch of the aristocracy in late Victorian or early Edwardian England! The git. Of course thousands of people do like the other less traditional ways of doing things and more power to them, but I'm hung up on an understated, reasonably hard-wearing, and yet classy look. It's subjective of course, just like my choice of hardware (gold!). I think it will look classy to me but to many others it will look boring or dull.

I also want the guitar to have some protection from the dings and bumps that life will throw at it and lacquer (nitro or poly) gives a tougher coat that oil - that is my understanding at least and please correct me if I'm wrong. Nothing will protect it forever of course, but in ten years time I worry that a guitar finished in oil will look more damaged than the one with the lacquer.

Can I ask why you would use tinted lacquer rather than staining the wood and the applying a clear lacquer? I appreciate what you said about there being different ways to approach it, but I would be interested in why you would choose that particular method rather than the staining and clear coat method. If it is because you are more familiar with your approach rather than the other way of doing it that's fair enough, but if there is something about the wood that is pointing you in a particular direction then I would love to know what that is.

As you can guess I am new to all this and being able to follow someones line of reasoning will help me if I come to finish another guitar in the future.

Is there a book that anyone can recommend that covers the different ways of finishing guitars, and more importantly, how to select one?

Once again, thank you for your advice.

SteveRobinson

deano said:

Can I ask why you would use tinted lacquer rather than staining the wood and the applying a clear lacquer? I 

A coloured lacquer will permit a deeper red than a stain would. I also think that you would achieve a more consistent colour.

How many commercial guitars use stained ash as opposed to a coloured lacquer over ash?

Is there a book that anyone can recommend that covers the different ways of finishing guitars, and more importantly, how to select one?

There is a Stewart Macdonald book but IIRC it just focuses on lacquer finishes because that's what most high end guitars use.

deano

Thanks Steve. That's great advice and I take your point about the commercial aspect of staining versus coloured lacquer. I will follow your method.

I'll post pictures once done, but it will be a while yet as I still need to drill the body for the bridge, tuners, scratchplate etc.

I understand it will be a challenge but I'll just take my time and try to get it as good as I can.

WezV

the problem is that it takes practice.  you might get it right first time, but allow time/budget for backwards steps  

Grainfilling ash is a challenge in itself.  be prepared to do it 3 times before the sealer if you want a glass finish and its your first time... then you may find you need to do it again when you spray your sealer and it shows the bits you missed or s

That issue goes away with alder, but the grain is comparatively boring.   there are loads of different finishing processes you can follow.  they vary based on the wood and finish used as much as anything else.    As long as your filler, sealer and paint are all compatible you can change the order or some of the early stages.

I would agree that trans lacquer sounds like a better option for what you want to achieve, mainly for consistency.  

Be aware more nitro finishes do show marks easily.  Where an oil finish would simply dent, brittle nitro will crack

Sarge

I do grainfill/stain/clear on ash without much issue, but a few applications of grainfill are a must.
My last few were done using Rustins Plastic Coat  brushed on over stain, there is a little leeching of the stain into the  RPC jar but not noticeable on thee body itself, RPC gives a pretty tough high gloss finish but like the old Imron (catalysed polyester) finishes of the 80's it can be brittle if hit hard enough, though I've not experienced that myself........yet