Help Me Understand Effects Loops

Duppy03

I've been playing for way long enough and should know this already, but I've always had vintage, single channel style amps with no loop and never had a problem putting my pedal in front.

But recently for that sake of practically I jumped on a cheapo Vox AV30 (and I really like it). It's the first amp I've ever had with an effects loop and was wondering if I should be using it.

The effects I use are Delay (MXR Carbon Copy), Tremolo (JOYO), Wah Wah (Crybaby) and I need to add a boost for solo's/single note melodies etc. (any suggestions).

I understand the basics that the loop sits between the pre-amp and power amp sections of the amp but was wondering what should I be putting in the loop and what should be going in front.

Cheers

vasselmeyer

The most common method is to put wah, compressor and dirt before the preamp and then modulation, delay and reverb in the loop. However, it depends on your ears and what you like the sound of best. Lots of people like the sound of a phaser before dirt, for example and there are some really interesting sounds to be had from sticking a delay into an overdriven sound.

I'd say that the main thing is that if you use an amp as a clean pedal platform then the use of a loop is not really necessary unless you like the sound of it when you're running 4cm.

One interesting thing to do is slam the amp input with some kind of clean boost to get some preamp distortion and then lower the overall volume with a level cut in the loop.

In the end, it's all down to your ears.

Alnico

Your Wah and boost should really go in front of the amp and the Carbon Copy in the loop.

Where you put the tremolo is up to you depending on how you want it to react. The best thing to do is try it in different positions.

Before the amp will affect the signal going into the pre-amp so the rise and fall will limit the amount of "Bloom" that the drive gives you. After the pre-amp, in the effects loop will give you more of a strict volume rise and fall and keep most of the drive tone.

Before the delay in the loop will affect the delay repeats in the same way that 'Baba-o-Reilly' by the who has on the intro (That's how they did that) and after it will give more of a bouncy effect with the repeats (Sort of).

Ultimately there is no right or wrong way because you may or may not want specific sounds but as a baseline, try

WAH

Boost

Pre-Amp

Carbon Copy

Tremolo

Power-Amp

Also, switching the Wah and Boost around will alter the effect of both so see which suits you and your set up better.

Does that help a bit?

Duppy03

That's a great help, thanks!

I've got a couple of pedals I could use as a boost for that volume lift, a Cali76 Compressor or ZVEX Super Hardon.

I tried the compressor last night going straight in, it gave me a bigger sound but not necessarily a volume lift. I'm guessing its because I already have the pre-amp driving quite hard, so there's no more headroom to offer a volume boost. Would I have any success dropping either in the loop instead?

Alternatively I could just use the second channel on the amp. Use identical settings on both channels but set the volume a little higher and get a footswitch.

ICBM

The only real rule is that you should not put any kind of overdrive, distortion, fuzz or a ‘preamp’ type pedal being used to generate it, into the loop. It can make the amp unstable, self-oscillate and in some rare cases cause damage. More normally it will just sound bad.

In theory a plain boost could do the same but you’d need to be adding such a huge amount of volume that I doubt it would be usable anyway, and I’ve never come across it being a problem.

Generally a wah will also sound bad in the loop, but won’t cause any harm.

Everything else is just a matter of experimenting and seeing what sounds good to you.

(You can run an external preamp etc into the FX return to bypass the amp’s preamp, as long as it doesn’t come from the send.)

ennspek

With a very broad brush, modulation in the loop, other stuff out front. They just sound different so try it out.
Plenty of players sounded alright before loops were invented so don't get too hung up about it.

EricTheWeary

ennspek said:

With a very broad brush, modulation in the loop, other stuff out front. They just sound different so try it out.
Plenty of players sounded alright before loops were invented so don't get too hung up about it.

To some extent it's the sound in your head that counts - if that sound is early Van Halen or Bauhaus or The Ruts,etc,etc,etc then there's every chance you'll get closer without using the loop. If that sound is a bit more 21st century you might need it. 

I have played around a bit using 4cm (4 cable method) but found it was just more trouble than it was worth. For what I do and how I sound and how much effort I'm willing to put in. So YMMV. 

Kalimna

4 cable method? Could someone explain, please?

Adam

viz

Kalimna said:

4 cable method? Could someone explain, please?

Adam

It’s for boards or highly configurable multi-fx pedals which have some effects that sit best before the input and others that go in the loop. So you need 4 cables.  

ICBM

Kalimna said:

4 cable method? Could someone explain, please?

Cable 1 - Guitar > pedalboard or multi-FX input

(FX that go in front of the amp)

Cable 2 - pedalboard/multi-FX send point > amp guitar input

(Amp's preamp)

Cable 3 - amp's FX send > pedalboard/multi-FX insert return

(FX that go in the amp's FX loop)

Cable 4 - pedalboard/multi-FX main output > amp's FX return

EricTheWeary

EricTheWeary said:

ennspek said:

With a very broad brush, modulation in the loop, other stuff out front. They just sound different so try it out.
Plenty of players sounded alright before loops were invented so don't get too hung up about it.

To some extent it's the sound in your head that counts - if that sound is early Van Halen or Bauhaus or The Ruts,etc,etc,etc then there's every chance you'll get closer without using the loop. If that sound is a bit more 21st century you might need it. 

I have played around a bit using 4cm (4 cable method) but found it was just more trouble than it was worth. For what I do and how I sound and how much effort I'm willing to put in. So YMMV. 

Kalimna said:

4 cable method? Could someone explain, please?

Adam

Sorry, I thought it was inferred from context  . Just what Viz and ICBM said. 

Kalimna

Thanks for the explanations - and just my brain not working, EricTheWeary, it is fairly self-explanatory

Adam

roberty

FX loop is for Metal Zone

darrenp

Assuming you're using the amp gain for overdriven sounds I'd be tempted to try the boost as the final pedal in the loop to give you a volume boost for solos. Generally, by running it into the front of the amp you'll just drive the pre-amp harder, resulting in more gain, but not much, if any, increase in volume. It depends how much gain you have on the amp though.

With the pedals you mention, personally I'd go with:

Guitar > Wah > Amp Input

Amp Effects Send > Tremolo > Delay > Boost > Amp Effects Return

As already mentioned though, you may prefer the sound of the tremolo and/or the delay in front, so always worth experimenting. 

Duppy03

Will give that set up a try