Locking nut and string tension

carlos

Haven't seen this mentioned online yet, but it makes sense to me that all things being the same (scale, string gauge, note it's tuned to, material of string), a locking nut will produce a string with less tension than a regular nut. True, the string vibrates between bridge and nut, but my feeling is that the extra length of string that goes between nut and tuner does add to the overall tension especially when doing anything that makes the string move across the nut, like bending a string or sliding.

Currently have 2 guitars with locking nuts and 1 headless which is essentially the same so can't really compare to a regular nut. Is there a difference? If so, is it noticeable or relevant? I'm an idiot, disregard this part.

Sporky

The static tension has to be the same, or you'd get a different pitch, but the feel when you bend might well be different.

I'd have thought you could find out by tightening and releasing the locking nut on one of your guitars - with the clamps undone it's effectively a normal nut (at least in terms of string tension).

Cols

In theory there should be a difference, whether it’s noticeable or not is another question.  You could conduct a test yourself just by loosening the clamps on your locking nut and going nuts.

carlos

Cols said:

In theory there should be a difference, whether it’s noticeable or not is another question.  You could conduct a test yourself just by loosening the clamps on your locking nut and going nuts.

Why didn't I think of this?

DLM

Try two similar guitars without locking nuts, one with a reverse headstock, one with regular orientation. I'm reliably informed that it does feel different.

ICBM

As Sporky said, if the string gauge (assuming the same composition etc), scale length and tuning is the same then the string tension is identical on any guitar no matter what the string does beyond the bridge saddle and the front face of the nut.

What is different is how that tension changes as you bend, or even just fret (which is a small bend) the strings.

A double-locking Floyd Rose-type trem has the fastest change of tension with bending because only the string length between the nut and saddle is stretched. Something like a Jazzmaster with long string lengths at both ends has the slowest. The different string lengths on a Fender-type head also matter, so a reverse head does feel different.

All that is simple physics and can be measured.

Where it gets complicated is that some players perceive the faster tension rise of a Floyd as 'stiffer' or 'harder to bend', whereas some perceive the faster *pitch* rise as 'easier to bend'. Both can be right, depending on how you view it... and that's before you have a vibrato system compared to a hardtail, which is a similar difference - some people find a hardtail stiffer, some find it easier.

skunkwerx

A musing. 

Obviously when bending a floyd rose equipped guitar with locking nut, the length beyond the nut is moot, thus you perceive its stiffer to bend up there, but as you bend up, the trem is pulled on, thus would that make a bend harder because your pulling the trem up too, or easier because your saddle is moving slightly compared to a fixed bridge? 

I also heard when you bend a string on a floyd rose, the other strings are knocked out slightly, presumably because the act of bending one string moves the trem. 
Think I heard it in a video once where the guy was explaining unison or oblique bends on a floyd rose equipped guitar.. but it is properly noticeable? 

Never had the chance to experiment myself! 

carlos

ICBM said:

Where it gets complicated is that some players perceive the faster tension rise of a Floyd as 'stiffer' or 'harder to bend', whereas some perceive the faster *pitch* rise as 'easier to bend'. Both can be right, depending on how you view it... and that's before you have a vibrato system compared to a hardtail, which is a similar difference - some people find a hardtail stiffer, some find it easier.

I find Floyds to feel more, errr, spongy. Just less stiff overall. This whole thing came about because I've been playing a big-bodied archtop w/ .012 flats and about 6" of string behind the saddles. Then I pick up my .009 floyd guitars or the headless and it feels like noodles. Perhaps I need to go up a gauge on the .009

ICBM

carlos said:

I find Floyds to feel more, errr, spongy. Just less stiff overall. This whole thing came about because I've been playing a big-bodied archtop w/ .012 flats and about 6" of string behind the saddles. Then I pick up my .009 floyd guitars or the headless and it feels like noodles. Perhaps I need to go up a gauge on the .009

Probably. If you want a real laugh, put 9s on the archtop and feel how easy *that* is to play .

I wouldn't try it the other way round! That much tension would probably not be good for the knife edges.

DLM

skunkwerx said:

I also heard when you bend a string on a floyd rose, the other strings are knocked out slightly, presumably because the act of bending one string moves the trem. 
Think I heard it in a video once where the guy was explaining unison or oblique bends on a floyd rose equipped guitar.. but it is properly noticeable? 

Never had the chance to experiment myself! 

Yes. Very noticable. This can be used to musical effect. Think of the "skronk" noises in KoRn songs. That's their word for it, I think. Dissonance would be the correct term. Doing in-tune multi-string bends or oblique bending requires a lot more control with a floating bridge than with a fixed one.

carlos

skunkwerx said:

A musing. 

Obviously when bending a floyd rose equipped guitar with locking nut, the length beyond the nut is moot, thus you perceive its stiffer to bend up there, but as you bend up, the trem is pulled on, thus would that make a bend harder because your pulling the trem up too, or easier because your saddle is moving slightly compared to a fixed bridge?

The opposite. On a fixed bridge there's no give. On a trem there's give even if you have to fight the springs. 

ICBM

carlos said:

On a fixed bridge there's no give. On a trem there's give even if you have to fight the springs. 

... but you have to move the strings physically further for the same pitch rise. 

I think it may may depend on what tension you’re used to - since you play 12s on an archtop, your fingers are strong and probably fairly immune to pain , so when you play 9s on a Floyd you don’t really notice the tension, and the quick pitch rise feels easy and ‘soft’.

If you’re used to light strings, then compare 11s on a Tele vs 11s on a Jazzmaster, you will notice the tension much more, so the Jazzmaster will feel easier to bend on even though you have to move the strings further. Most people find 11s ‘stiff’ on a Tele but normal on a Jazzmaster.